Devilish “St Pauls Anglican Church” in Auckland, New Zealand, banned an innocent Christian from entering their community through their pastors/vicars Paul Ashman and Blake Ramage. The rude Anglican pastors interrupted, interfered, stalked, discriminated, banned, and demeaningly imposed an obligatory “report-your-presence” duty as the condition for visiting their public Sunday meetings – in order to keep people safe from the Christian. The imaginative Anglican pastors fear the Christian’s clarity of mind and purpose, fear the Christian’s honesty and truthfulness, and in absolute absence of such offending history - fear that the Christian could be putting single ladies in harms position.

(http://stpauls.org.nz)

(http://www.kyrkor.be/Also-satan-seems-to-be-an-Anglican.htm)

On Sunday evening Feb. 16, 2014, and on Monday morning Feb. 17, 2014, St Pauls Anglican Church in Auckland, New Zealand, through their devilish Anglican vicars/pastors Blake Ramage and Paul Ashman, banned an innocent Christian from their community. Although the vicars by words asserted that they were welcoming, no normal person would tolerate the demeaning demands and dehumanising attitudes of these Anglican vicars, and therefore, in reality the pastors were by no means welcoming – but the pastors were in effect excommunicating.

On Sunday evening at 18:21 on February 16, 2014, I entered St Pauls Anglican church in Auckland, New Zealand. As I entered the church building, appointed greeters appropriately greeted with delivery of their church bulletin. I walked further on into the church hall and placed myself standing five meters away from the greeters. Minutes later a female PA staff to one of the pastors walked up to me and spoke in a friendly manner; wanting to offer to me a welcome package of information. I politely explained to the pastoral PA that it was my third Sunday visit, that I already had researched the church online, and that a welcome-package would be excessive for me. I then moved another four meters further into the back of the church hall and placed myself standing next to a pillar adjacent with an isle. After another few minutes, a vicar named Blake Ramage approached me and wanted to speak. He asked my name, and from my name he immediately recognised who I was. We then spoke courteously for a few minutes. When it was announced from the microphone in the front that the “service” was about to commence, I said to Blake Ramage that I will speak with him next time on Monday morning at 11:00, as agreed previously by email, and I walked away from him. I sat down in a seat in the last row of chairs at the back.

At the end of the Sunday evening “service” on Feb.16, 2014, the devilish pastor Blake Ramage observed that I was sitting in conversation at the last row with a much older woman, and therefore, the pastor-devil walked up me to distract/interfere in the ongoing conversation between the woman and myself. Among civilised people, the interfering conduct of this Anglican pastor would be regarded as ill-mannered, but because the interfering pastor is a typically devilish Anglican vicar, the vicar seemed to believe that his rudeness is acceptable and justifiable. And prior to the conclusion of the mingle after the “service”, while I patiently stood aside and waited to greet a person in front of me, who I had spoken with a week earlier, but the person was engaged in a personal conversation which I respected to not interrupt, the devilish vicar Blake Ramage walked up to me, placed himself intimidatingly next to me, and there repeatedly requested of me to leave the church building.

When the person who Torsten was waiting to greet stood up from a seated position in a chair as a sign of having finished the ongoing conversation, Torsten approached the person and said hello. Torsten then walked towards the main exit, with vicar Blake Ramage following closely behind Torsten. Torsten exited the church building onto the sidewalk, with vicar Blake Ramage pursuing Torsten also outside. As Torsten realised that he was being stalked by the Anglican devil all the way to the sidewalk, Torsten expressed his disapproval towards Blake Ramage’s conduct, upon which Blake Ramage responded: “You were standing there for quite a long period of time doing nothing. Other people are in there for a purpose. And I don’t feel comfortable that you’re standing there, not doing anything. I think that’s a worry for me. You were the only one standing there by yourself doing nothing. I have suspicion.”

The next day on Monday Feb.17, 2014 at 11:00 during a scheduled meeting to discuss something, vicars Blake Ramage and Paul Ashman, banned Torsten from their community groups, and demeaningly imposed an obligatory “report-your-presence” duty as the condition for Torsten visiting their public Sunday meetings – in order to keep people safe from Torsten.

The devilish Anglican vicars distorted the real Torsten from every angle and offered these hostile comments to Torsten: “There are people we need to be aware of – we need to watch out for - just to protect those that are within the church. […] You’re not coming in from a civil or friendly point of view wanting to enter into community. […] You’re not actually wanting to enter into a relationship. […] You’re about getting one thing. You’re not about what the culture is as individuals and a community. […] What you seem to be about, there needs to be boundaries in place. […] We need to set close boundaries. […] At this stage I’m not willing to let you enter into other parts of our community. […] When you come to the public meeting, you need to come and see Paul or I, just to let us know that you’re here. […] You could be putting some of our single ladies in harms position.”

As usual with most churches, satan demonstrates that he influences St Pauls Anglican Church in Auckland, New Zealand, through their pastors/vicars Blake Ramage and Paul Ashman.

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The first audio recording is of an Anglican vicar Blake Ramage who discriminatorily requested Torsten to leave his St Pauls Anglican Church, on Sunday evening Feb.16, 2014 at 20:52 inside the church. The second audio recording is of the Anglican vicar Blake Ramage affirming his selective expulsion of Torsten from St Pauls Anglican Church, on Sunday evening Feb.16, 2014 at 20:54 outside the church entrance on the sidewalk. The third audio recording is from a scheduled discussion between Anglican vicars Paul Ashman and Blake Ramage, against Torsten, on Monday morning Feb.17, 2014 inside St Pauls Anglican Church. The beneath transcriptions are as accurate as I am capable to hear.

·         Recording of a discriminatory request to leave the church by vicar Blake Ramage: [MP3-file at 36 kB, 06 sec]: http://www.kyrkor.be/Blake_Ramage_StPauls_Church_Auckland_140216_2052_inside.mp3

·         Recording of vicar Blake Ramage affirming his selective expulsion of Torsten: [MP3-file at 435 kB, 1 min]: http://www.kyrkor.be/Blake_Ramage_StPauls_Church_Auckland_140216_2054_outside.mp3

Recording of a scheduled discussion between vicars Paul Ashman and Blake Ramage, against Torsten:

·         [AMR-file at 2.4 MB, 38 min]: http://www.kyrkor.be/Paul-Ashman_and_Blake-Ramage_StPauls_Church_Auckland_140217_amr.amr

·         [MP3-file at 10.5 MB, 38 min]: http://www.kyrkor.be/Paul-Ashman_and_Blake-Ramage_StPauls_Church_Auckland_140217_mp3.mp3

TRANSCRIPT  1:

Time: Sunday, February 16, 2014, at 20:52

Location: inside St Pauls Anglican church building with other people on all sides, in Auckland, New Zealand.

BLAKE RAMAGE:   Ok… ok… so you’re gonna make a move now?!

TORSTEN:   Yup.

TRANSCRIPT  2:

Time: Sunday, February 16, 2014, at 20:54

Location: outside St Pauls Anglican church on the sidewalk 3-4 meter from the entrance door to St Pauls church building in Auckland, New Zealand.

TORSTEN:   I don’t see that you’re pushing anyone else out of … out of … you were targeting me.

BLAKE RAMAGE:   Well, you were standing there for quite a long period of time doing nothing. Other people are in there for a purpose and a [reason]. And I don’t feel comfortable that you’re standing there, not doing anything. I think that’s a worry for me.

TORSTEN:   ok

BLAKE RAMAGE:    … ?

TORSTEN:   I noticed that I was the only one that you’re targeting.

BLAKE RAMAGE:   You were the only one standing there by yourself doing nothing.

TORSTEN:   ok

BLAKE RAMAGE:   Yeah. Out of the whole, everyone, I looked around I saw everyone doing something. And I said; Why is someone standing for quite a long period of time for themselves? And I have suspicion. So, I’m happy to chat with you tomorrow, and take it from there.

TORSTEN:   ok. Because I find that quite rude - it’s actually discriminatory that you’re actually targeting one individual

BLAKE RAMAGE:   yah

TORSTEN:   and one individual only - out of a church.

BLAKE RAMAGE:   It’s only cause you’re [s… ?]. Actually I’ve left my keys in there so I just need to talk to. I need to get my keys. We’ll have this conversation tomorrow.

TRANSCRIPT  3:

Time: Monday, February 17, 2014, at approximately 11:00

Location: inside St Pauls Anglican church in Auckland, New Zealand.

PAUL ASHMAN:   My name is Paul. I am one of the clergy here. […] And you’ve met Blake.

BLAKE RAMAGE:   We met last night.

PAUL ASHMAN:   You know a bit about Blake already. My area is kind of, oversees mission, and prayer and things like that. There’s a number of us clergy that work here.

[…]

PAUL ASHMAN:   We’re an Anglican church. Can you tell me a bit about yourself?

TORSTEN:   Yup, eah, I’m a Swedish citizen. I grew up in Canada. Canada is my cultural identity. And Sweden is my legal identity.

PAUL ASHMAN:   Do you have residence in Canada as well?

TORSTEN:   No, in Sweden.

PAUL ASHMAN:   Is there anything else you’d like to tell about yourself who you are?

TORSTEN:   Yeah, yeah, eh, … One of the points we want to agree on to talk about. So from my perspective … so we know what to talk about. And then, My… The key question for me, which I emailed out to your church: ‘Are there opportunities in your church where I as a single man can meet and communicate with other Christian singles?’ That’s the core question. Ok? That’s the core subject from my perspective. And, eh. There’s two things I would like to talk about before that. The first relates to why this setting with three people. So I wanna know from you why Blake was introduced. And second is to talk about the conduct of Blake – yesterday Sunday. So these are two thing I wanna talk about before we get to the subject. Is there anything you want to talk about?

PAUL ASHMAN:   Yeah, first of all: you’ve come with a number of requests, uhm, from emails and just now. I’m responsible for myself and Blake and a few others clergy staff for our congregation. So obviously we care for our congregation. And we also try to care for you. But we need to find out a little bit more about you; who you are as a person. And I think, um, that’s one thing. The second thing is probably to talk a little bit about some of the emails. And some the information you have sent to us. Just to try and have a look at where you’re coming from, who you are, what they are all about. And then, at the end of that, after discussing it, probably look at a way forward.

BLAKE RAMAGE:   No I wouldn’t add anything, other than that, in terms of agreeing what to talk about, I’m not prepared to talk about last night. […] I gave a very clear explanation to you at the door as to why I had signalled to you that it’s time to leave, and so I’m not prepared to [?] that further. I feel that I have given an explanation, so, part of this discussion was involved that.

TORSTEN:   Ok, uhm, I appreciate that you’ve already declared you don’t want to answer any questions. But I will ask you. You did say before that “We’ll take about this tomorrow.”

BLAKE RAMAGE:   Yeah, right, and I have subsequently thought that actually I was very clear last night, and I’m not prepared to discuss that further.

TORSTEN:   Because of the lack of clarity, that is the reason I want to ask you. But anyways, we’ll start off on my first topic, and then eh … So the question, which is my key question “Are there opportunities … ?”, that will perhaps follow of your interest “Who am I?”, and you wanted to ask questions regarding the letter.

PAUL ASHMAN:   As a church, we […] to your question, and to people having relationships and singles coming to our church, but they have to follow the same “normal” norms of society. And, um, what is safe for different individuals has to be an equal sort of, um, agreement between individuals. Now as a church, we also need to, we are also aware there are people we need [to be] aware of – we need to watch out for - just to protect those that are within the church. Ok? Now I’m not saying that you are one of those people, but we need to find out who you are. And we need to be in relationship with you. We totally up for people for singles getting together, getting married. That’s, you know, the call of life for some people. For some people it’s not. We’re not against. So now …

TORSTEN:   You’re not against it, but you’re for it?

PAUL ASHMAN:   We’re for it.

TORSTEN:   ok

TORSTEN:   So, my first question is: I have never previously had any communication, to my knowledge, with Blake. And I did note he was not on, as of yesterday, he was not on the website as part of the staff. Blake told me yesterday, he was taken onboard as staff about a week ago, so maybe that’s why this information was not updated, with only a week ago. Why was Blake introduced? Why are we sitting three people rather than two people?

PAUL ASHMAN:   Um, I just think it’s […] counsellor to some extent […] opportunity […] for me it’s good to have Blake here with us, rather than just two people talking, having three people. Um,

PAUL ASHMAN:   … meet with another person, particularly in society these days, it’s good to do that, for many, many different reasons. One thing, it’s good to have two people thinking around the subject. The other thing it’s safe; it’s safer for you, it’s safer for me. So there are quite some different reasons for that, rather than just one on one person. That’s a very normal thing that I do, and not because the church and other churches would do it.

TORSTEN:   I respect that explanation. I …

BLAKE RAMAGE:   May I ask a question?

TORSTEN:   No you may not interrupt again.

[BLAKE RAMAGE REPEATEDLY TRIES TO FORCE HIMSELF TO INTERRUPT TORSTEN’s COMMENCED WORDS.]

TORSTEN:   No you will wait until …

BLAKE RAMAGE:   No, no, no.

TORSTEN:   I continue talking.

BLAKE RAMAGE:   No I will not …

TORSTEN:   As I said, I respect that, because I function in the same way in thinking about safety.

PAUL ASHMAN:   Ok. Torsten, for you to come into this church, and to look and to ask these questions, and to want to be involved in the church, um, we have to operate within the way we currently operate, and the way you’re just talking now, talking over, not giving him that space … Within this culture, it’s considered to be - rude.

[PAUL ASHMAN BLAMES TORSTEN WHEN TORSTEN WAS RUDELY INTERRUPTED BY BLAKE RAMAGE.]

TORSTEN:   Ok, can I tell you about rudeness? That is interrupting. You wait until somebody has finished their sentence. Then you speak. And that is exactly the rudeness I wanted to talk about: Blake’s conduct yesterday. He interrupted a conversation. And he discriminatorily targeted only I. And I [he] requested only I to leave the building.

PAUL ASHMAN:   Ok.

BLAKE RAMAGE:   Can I ask a question as well. It’s an important question. I noticed on your website that you recorded conversations about pastors, and I’m wondered are you recording our …

TORSTEN:   Yes I am. And that’s what I’m acknowledging - that safety; […] You have two people. This is my safety.

BLAKE RAMAGE:   I see it’s your safety. But it’s important to, I think, let us know. I mean, you’re basically covertly recording our meeting, and I don’t think that is – I think you should have. Paul let you know I was coming so you didn’t get a surprise when I came, and I think it would have been appropriate for you to tell us that you were recoding our conversation.

TORSTEN:   You know now. And it is perfectly clear for anybody who has read the material that I secure myself with evidence. So in case that you make, eh, evil decisions based on our conversation, eh, then I may opt to publicly declare it. But I hope I don’t have need to publicly declare it.

PAUL ASHMAN:   Ok Torsten, that way you are responding to us, and even your emails that you have sent to some of the staff members, um, you’re not coming in from a civil or friendly point of view wanting to enter into community. Now relationships aren’t formed, and communities are formed around relationships building trust. Um. But at the moment, trust isn’t being formed.

[TORSTEN TRIES TO SPEAK, BUT PAUL ASHMAN DOES NOT GIVE TORSTEN THAT SPACE.]

PAUL ASHMAN:   […] under suspicion … from us. Ok. And because of that suspicion, some of the claim that you’re posting on your website, we are coming in with a lot of mistrust. Ok, so that’s why it’s coming to this point. And already, you’ve started – you started this conversation in this way. Um, and, I come and open wanting to know you, asking who you are, trying to build some sort of relationship with you. And you’re not taking time, you’re not willing to enter into that. Now if you want to form a relationship with us as a church, and with people in our church, you’ve got to start from that basis. At this moment you’re not. Do you understand that? That’s how relationships are formed.

TORSTEN:   Personally, I understand the nature of relationship building. Eh, so, in your email response, you indicated a grave lack of trust in two ways. One: you actually wrote, it’s got to be “safe – all around”. Now that clearly indicates that you do not trust me.

[PAUL ASHMAN INTERRUPTS TORSTEN WHILE TORSTEN IS SPEAKING]

TORSTEN:   Can I, can I just finish? Can I finish?

TORSTEN:   And, eh, and so in addition you also add another person [Blake Ramage]. So it’s not just about two people meeting, it’s about, eh …

PAUL ASHMAN:   Let me just open the email you sent before I sent you back an email. Is that ok? Let me get to that, because the things that you wrote down were rather derogatory. Now there may have been a mistake from our church because someone didn’t have all the information, but your response to that was very derogatory.

[IT DAWNS ON TORSTEN THAT BOTH VICARS ARE UNFRIENDLY. PAUL ASHMAN TAKES OUT HIS MOBILE PHONE TO SEARCH FOR EMAILS. TORSTEN GETS A BIT ANNOYED.]

TORSTEN:   You want to talk about that.

PAUL ASHMAN:   Who am I talking to?

TORSTEN:   I don’t know. But certainly these are thing we can talk about. You know.

PAUL ASHMAN:   Do you mind if I check the emails?

TORSTEN:   Yeah, yeah, let’s talk about it.

[PAUL ASHMAN SITS AND READS EMAILS INSTEAD OF COMMUNICATING.]

PAUL ASHMAN:   That’s the email there.

[PAUL ASHMAN HOLDS OUT HIS MOBILE AND WANTS TORSTEN TO READ SOMETHING ON IT.]

TORSTEN:   Ok, and which, is there a particular, send, you want …

PAUL ASHMAN:   The shameful at the end.

TORSTEN:   Shameful. Yeah. It is shameful. It is shameful.

TORSTEN:   Eh. You would never find business-minded people, or people that are pragmatic, to leave out the most essential, the absolute essential information, for a successful meeting. You establish time and location. If you omit any of those, time & location, you cannot have a meeting.

PAUL ASHMAN:   Look. We’re not a business. Ok.

BLAKE RAMAGE:   We’re a Christian community. Which is what we claim to be.

PAUL ASHMAN:   When I looked at your website, and looked at all your claims on that, I suspicious that you’re not actually wanting to enter into a relationship. I’m suspicious that you are just going around, um, with agenda. Ok. Trying to prove something, and trying to point something out, um, that you feel you need to do. Um. I’m open to being in relationship with you, and allowing you into our community, but in doing that, because of all the information that you’ve posted and what you seem to be about, there needs to be boundaries in place for that to happen.

TORSTEN:   And what are the boundaries that you have in mind?

PAUL ASHMAN:   The boundaries are that, at this stage, you’re allowed to come to our public services. So there is the 9, 11, there’s three evening services Ok? At this stage I’m not willing to let you enter into other parts of our community.

TORSTEN:   And why is that?

PAUL ASHMAN:   Um, because the reasons I’ve just stated before.

TORSTEN:   What do you fear? You’re obviously somewhat suspicious, because you’ve said that you’re suspicious and there’s a lack of trust. And what are you suspicious of? What do you fear?

PAUL ASHMAN:   Ah, I fear, well, all the stuff you’ve posted on the web.

[BLAKE RAMAGE BARGES BACK INTO THE CONVERSATION]

BLAKE RAMAGE:   … of, ah, on the internet of churches we are affiliated with, and, eh, are in relationship with, who are mentioned very badly, and as a result of that, and obviously as a consequence to that, ah, we need to put down some things, to ensure the same sort of results doesn’t occur here in this group as has in other places.

PAUL ASHMAN:   And if we can build relationships to the point where, actually, you are welcome in the community, and you start to build those relationships, then great and fantastic. But, because I care about those that come to this church, and also because I care for you, we need to take that [stage?].

TORSTEN:   If I understand the rationale, eh, with this preventing, it’s because other, your colleagues, your Anglican colleagues have, eh, and other colleagues in Auckland, have evicted and excommunicated me. And once they have displayed that level of evil, I have exposed them. Now because I have exposed, you want to punish me. Is that correct?

BLAKE RAMAGE:   You coming in the U.K. and Sydney and here in Auckland, there is a common theme where you go into churches and you seem to be, I’m not sure what your goal is, but you seem to go into situation where, basically the relationship breaks down at some point and you post it all online, and I’m not sure what the purpose of all of that is. But knowing that that has occurred, we need to be cautious. And Paul has already said, so there are boundaries to be put in place.

TORSTEN:   Ok. You’re not answering the question: What do you fear? Because obviously you fear something. Either that, or you just want to punish. So, what do you fear?

PAUL ASHMAN:   No. We’re not wanting to punish. You need to acknowledge the point beforehand: we’re wanting to do relationship with, we’re opening our door to you. But, it will be a slow process, where you learn to trust me and I learn to trust you, and you come into community. We’re not wanting to punish. We’re giving- You had lots of opportunities that have been chucked down for you. We can see that. There’s a history there. Actually we are offering something here for you. Ok? We’re offering a hand of friendship. That’s what we’re saying. And [unclear words: “you learn in these boundaries, these boundaries for the people”] We have suspicious when they come with a history. Now your history is all the things you’re posting on the website. Um, either all those churches around the world are evil and of they are of the devil like you say, and all the stuff they’re involved with is just wrong, and they’re not doing any good, or, the other side is actually, there’s a misinterpret… you’re interpreted something wrong or taking on something that’s not true. And you’re not learning from that, or you’re presenting yourself in a way that is being interpreted the wrong way.

TORSTEN:   So, What in your decision, eh, to bar me from anything else but the public meetings in the sanctuary: What do you fear? What do you fear would happen?

PAUL ASHMAN:   So, I’m not barring you in the future. What I’m saying is: let’s start slowly, and then see how it goes.

TORSTEN:   Ok. But there needs to be a reasonable fear, and what is reasonability I can’t comment on that, but what are the fears?

PAUL ASHMAN:   Ok. There’s two big fears. The first one is someone who says I’ve come with an agenda to marry a single person. [vicar rambles with his with words] congregation. “Now I am interested in …” “in marrying some”, “can you point out” or “can you let me into your community”. And I have said “No! That is inappropriate!” “That is the wrong thing to come with such a strong agenda. It’s about coming, forming relationships with people. Getting to know. Open yourself. Letting people make fair decisions. And that take time. And that’s what I’m saying: let’s get to know you, let’s build that relationship, let other people see you for who you are.

[The Anglican vicars fear people who have a clarity of mind and clarity of purpose, and fear honest people. The vicars imagine that Torsten would have asked a pastor to “point someone out”. This absolutely is pastoral fantasy. The reality is, however, that Torsten only has asked the vicars if there are opportunities to meet and communicate and build relationships with other single people, and asked if Torsten was welcome.]

PAUL ASHMAN:   The second one, is all that stuff that is on the web. That, um, I have great concern about a lot of information you have posted, and some of the things you are calling other Christian believers. Now that is NOT something that Jesus Christ would never say, and or want to us to be doing. Would it? Saying that about other …

TORSTEN:   Well, Jesus just said “You brood of vipers!” [Matthew 12:34; hypocrisy and evil corruption] I like the way… I absolutely love the way Jesus approached the hypocrisy and the evil of church organisation. But he loved the people. He saw the needs of people. He had compassion for people. But you don’t.

[BLAKE RAMAGE AND PAUL ASHMAN INTERRUP TORSTEN AGAIN, AND IMPATIENTLY DEMAND TO SPEAK INSTEAD]

BLAKE RAMAGE:   We do. The other thing is that …

PAUL ASHMAN:   You’re not helping to build relationship here. I am trying to be really patient and loving. And open the door for you.

TORSTEN:   Ok. What about the history here

TORSTEN:   Thank-you for acknowledging and specifying your two fears. If we look at your first fear, eh um, the fear of marriage. Now if you think marriage is an institution from God, then why do you fear it?

PAUL ASHMAN:   I don’t fear it at all. When someone comes with an explicit agenda stating that, above everything else, is not coming in a normal sort of way that builds trust and builds respect for people, and allowing them to enter into that. So, you’re about getting one thing. You’re not about, um, what the culture is as individuals and a community. And you seem to be on this agenda of just looking for a single lady who you can marry.

TORSTEN:   Is that merely my agenda?

PAUL ASHMAN:   Well that’s what you’re communicating in your email. Go back and look at that emails that you’ve sent us.

TORSTEN:   What about in my emails, do I mention that I minister the Gospel to other people? Did you read that in your emails – that I minister the Gospel message to other people?

BLAKE RAMAGE:   The primary purpose of what we are about here …

TORSTEN:   I’m looking at Paul … and the question is directed to Paul.

PAUL ASHMAN:   … you need to be able to respect the pastors of this community. Ok?

BLAKE RAMAGE:   And I’m a leader here, actually, Torsten. So if we have a meeting, it’s important that you don’t completely ignore me. Or else, we got a serious problem. So, part of coming into a community is keeping the various people and various leaders that are here. And our primary purpose here is to provide a place where people can come and worship, not a dating service. And so when people email the office, sometimes quite rudely, and asking can we provide them a link to a single female, that is a concern for us, because we have a duty to care for every person that comes here, to make sure that people aren’t coming here with alternative agendas, other than what our primary purpose is, which is to worship God. And to get to know God, and to be in relationship with God.

[Obviously Romans 12:1, Matthew 25:45, and Mark 12:31 is not the kind of worship from vicar Blake Ramage.]

TORSTEN:   Back to you Paul.

PAUL ASHMAN:   I haven’t seen any evidence like that.

TORSTEN:   Evidence of?

PAUL ASHMAN:   Evidence of what you just …

TORSTEN:   Ok. So you didn’t read anywhere else in that email that, eh, that I evangelise, or that I minister to people, or?

PAUL ASHMAN:   Um. To tell you the truth I may have, but since, since the red flag was “I’m looking for a single lady to speak to at church.”

TORSTEN:   Ok. And that is something that you want, that is warning to you? A man, a single Christian man wants to marry, and that …

[Paul Ashman interrupts Torsten.]

PAUL ASHMAN:   As a first point of contact, a way to the church, that […] [difficult to hear the exact words] I’ve had it from other places. I’ve had to meet the people and say that’s not the way we do things. It’s about coming in slowly, getting to know people, getting to know the community, and building relationships. Not just […] and another way of taking advice […].

PAUL ASHMAN:   We’re totally for marriage.

TORSTEN:   Ok. What are the fears that you think could happen, or that you …

[Blake Ramage interrupts Torsten. Both vicars react oppositionally with uninterpretable words.]

TORSTEN:   But these are general explanations. What … When someone says “I want to find a husband.” or “I want to find a wife.”, “I am a Christian woman. I want to find a husband.”, “I’m a Christian man. I want to find a Christian woman to marry.”

[Anglican vicars attempt again to interrupt Torsten’s question.]

TORSTEN:   What manifestations in reality are you afraid of?

PAUL ASHMAN:   I’m saying that, We don’t know you at all. And you’re coming in with that agenda. And, um , we don’t know you, who you are as a person. An you could be all sorts of things. You probably aren’t, but you could be. But we’d like to get to know you first of all.

TORSTEN:   Ok.

PAUL ASHMAN:   Now. We’ve been there. Those are my fears.

TORSTEN:   Ok. Eh. What can happen in reality? What’s the worst case scenario that can happen?

BLAKE RAMAGE:   You’re the worst fear, I can say. [difficult to hear exactly]

PAUL ASHMAN:   We’ve already been there.

TORSTEN:   Is it a principle thing? If you don’t interfere – “This” could happen.

PAUL ASHMAN:   You want to think that’s what I believe. You will make up your own mind over that. I will say now: We are for marriage as a church. Ok. Alright. So, moving forward.

PAUL ASHMAN:   I’ve opened the door to be, to come in and to be part of this community. But it will start slowly. You are welcome, but there will be boundaries put in place.

TORSTEN:   Do you think that’s a successful strategy? For example to pinpoint, as this gentleman [vicar Blake Ramage] did yesterday, as Blake did yesterday, to target one individual, and to interrupt a conversation. I was sitting in the back right there talking with somebody, and he came forward and interrupted [actually interfered] that conversation. And I’ve tried to avoid, we were talking about evangelism with this, eh, 50-60 year old …

[Paul Ashman interrupts Torsten.]

PAUL ASHMAN:   […] move forward

TORSTEN:   We need to, you know, translate these generalisations into the practical, because that is where it manifests. And that is a manifestation of interrupting … I think if you ask anyone outside of church they’ll say “That is rude: to interrupt and to interfere in another conversation.”

BLAKE RAMAGE:   People were leaving.

TORSTEN:   No. No.

BLAKE RAMAGE:   Look Torsten. I’ve clearly stated as part of the agenda I won’t be discussing last night. And I know that [court?] [difficult to hear], prove it on a website. And I don’t know how that information is going to be used, and we don’t have any control over that. We have continued, with […] though I felt uncomfortable about that. You’ve got information that I don’t know how you’re gonna use it. And, eh, […] [difficult to hear] we don’t actually want to talk about it. We have come, um, to open the door, that you can come to the public meeting, but that there will be boundaries. And eh, as part of coming to this there we need to set close boundaries.

TORSTEN:   Eh, You’re banning me from small groups [?] I’m welcome to the public meetings in the sanctuary, but I’m banned from small groups. Without potential of, eh, none potential, because I have no potential to create real relationships with people. And also with the type of target action, as you’ve demonstrated by, blatantly, which is a type of discriminatory persecution in the church. How do you expect me to have a trust in relationship with someone who treats me like that?

PAUL ASHMAN:   As I’ve said before, bit by bit. We’ve done in the past with people and, they’ve learned to trust

TORSTEN:   Well, let’s look at the trust issue. How can I trust someone who doesn’t want to tell me what they fear? You don’t want to be specific. What do you specifically fear that would happen?

PAUL ASHMAN:   [probably said “We have already talked about it.”]

TORSTEN:   You haven’t actually .You’ve told me generalisations that you fear, you have a general fear for people that are honest regarding their intent of marriage. People who conceal those intent, people who conceal their evil, people who are duplicitous you welcome, you (em)fathom [embrace], people who are not even Christian you (em)fathom [embrace] them into the community, but those who are real born-again, Holy-Spirit filled, Christian, those who are honest, those who are truthful, those are the ones that you excommunicate.

TORSTEN:   I think, you know, people that have a more sober perspective, people that are in the secular community, they look - and they shake their head and say “What…!” , “What sort of glasses are these persons in church leadership looking with?”

PAUL ASHMAN:   These are recurring themes in your life. Ok. You need to start thinking about that. And welcome, we’re offering a hand of friendship. We welcome you in. But once again, you’re going down the same line you’ve gone down with many other churches.

TORSTEN:   Well actually, you have chosen …

PAUL ASHMAN:   With churches around the world, actually, this is happening again and again and again. You should think about that.

TORSTEN:   Ok, but I’m being specific. The only person being targeted, requested to leave, in a rude manner, eh, by Blake yesterday: he interrupted my conversations. I stood and waited for a person I wanted to say hello to, because I have the manners not to interrupt. I see somebody in a conversation, it seems to be a deep conversation, so I stand aside – and a wait! Until they appear to have been finished, concluding that. That is why I stood and waited, and he targeted me he said ‘You!’, specifically only ‘You’, ‘Get out of here!’. And so, that’s not acceptable! This type of discriminatory … You say I’m welcome to the public meeting, but we will interfere, we will interrupt, and we will target you specifically. Ok? That’s not building trust, my friend.

BLAKE RAMAGE:   … And, I felt I was very clear last night with the reasoning.

PAUL ASHMAN:   Were you?

BLAKE RAMAGE:   Ehh.

PAUL ASHMAN:   And with the evidence, with the background emotion we had on you, and having […] some of emails and dialogue, and the manner in which you dialogue with us, we have concerns. Now that we’ve met with you, there is a way forward if you choose to take it.

TORSTEN:   I wonder what sort of way “forward” would that be, if your staff are intent to interfere in conversation that I have, and to specifically and discriminatorily target me in the public meeting. And on top of that, you’ve banned me from the small groups meetings where there is more potential to get to know people.

PAUL ASHMAN:   You have a choice to take that opportunity Ok?

BLAKE RAMAGE:   … It’s just that when you come to the public meeting, you need to come and see Paul or I, just to let us know that you’re here. And, that’s part of who we trust … And I’m not gonna go into that any further other than to say that’s the way …

[Torsten interrupts Blake Ramage.]

TORSTEN:   So when I enter the building I have to report to you or to Paul and say “I’m here.” Now is that OK? Does anybody else to do that and repost to you? Ok, so why are you targeting… ?

PAUL ASHMAN:   There are actually two other people that have to do that.

TORSTEN:   Mhmm.

TORSTEN:   How can you expect me to have a trust in somebody who has such a demeaning attitude towards me; ‘If you want to enter our public meetings, first you must report to us, so that we can keep you under observation, so that we can interfere, and keep you in our control, because we trust you nothing.’ That is essentially what you are saying. ‘You must first report to us, if you enter our building.’

BLAKE RAMAGE:   That is correct.

TORSTEN:   Well. How do you think, Paul? What is in your head?! How can you think? How can you possibly think that that will be developing trust? How should I trust someone who tells me ‘If you want to talk to people in our church, you must report to me and ask for my permission.’

PAUL ASHMAN:   … building relationship with me, and you’ll get to know me, and I’ll get to know you, and we’ll start to build trust. Ok? We’ve got to start from somewhere, and that’s where we’re starting from. Ok?

TORSTEN:   And what do you think a natural human response to that is?   ‘I am going to control you. Now, if you want to enter into our community, you must submit to me, because I am your authority.’

BLAKE RAMAGE:   I think we should just quit there. I think we have been very clear about taking [?] our boundary.

PAUL ASHMAN:   We’re offering a way. You can choose to take it. Ok?

TORSTEN:   Ah. You refuse to talk about your discriminatory way of targeting me when I was in the building yesterday. And you refuse to be precise about your fears; what you think I might commit – what you think I might do, if I were to …

PAUL ASHMAN:    … one way or the other. Ok?

TORSTEN:   You think by not being honest with me is a way forward?

PAUL ASHMAN:   I’ve been totally honest with you.

TORSTEN:   You haven’t. You haven’t been totally honest. You’re very demeaning about your fear. You’re not being honest.

PAUL ASHMAN:   This meeting is coming to an end. Ok?

TORSTEN:   You’re not being open with me Paul.

PAUL ASHMAN:   I am being totally open with you.

TORSTEN:   No you’re not. You’re evading a lot of questions. And you think that by evading these questions, that you think you’re building trust.

PAUL ASHMAN:   … in our congregation and to me. Ok? And as for someone coming in to our church, there are steps that we are putting in place that look after you, and also look after us. There are safety measures, not only for us, but for you. Ok? If someone were to see the website, your website, from in our congregation, and they saw you talking to a young lady, they could do other things as well. Ok?

TORSTEN:   Like what?

PAUL ASHMAN:   But, if you [difficult to hear, but sound like: “erased your website, that is behind special cause of a person”], some of the things you say about Christian churches around the world, well respected churches in the world, I am considerably concerned. Ok?

TORSTEN:   What do you fear?

PAUL ASHMAN:   My fear is that you be put in harms position. But also, particularly without knowing you, you could be putting some of our single ladies in harms position.

TORSTEN:   And what do you fear?

BLAKE RAMAGE:   We’re not going any further on that.

PAUL ASHMAN:   That’s where it is. That’s our conversation finished. That’s it. Ok?

TORSTEN:   Ok, so you’ve been very evasive, you have been very general, and you have also excommunicated me from potential, and that I should report to you if I were to enter a public meeting, and ask for permission to be present in your public meeting. Is that correct?

TORSTEN:   What’s the purpose of this ordinance?

PAUL ASHMAN:   I’ve set the boundaries. I’m not going there. Ok?

BLAKE RAMAGE:   We’re gonna conclude the meeting here.

TORSTEN:   Ok, so you’re not gonna tell me?

---------------------

Hi Torsten,

Thank you for your email.

Lets met at Craven A for a coffee, a cafe across the road from the church on St Paul's st. Next to AUT, Wilson car park.

My colleague Blake also will be coming.

Look forward to seeing you at 11 at Craven A, tomorrow.

Paul Ashman

Assistant Priest,

St Pauls Church.

021 550104

Hi Torsten,

Monday the 17th at 11am is good.

At the office.

Thanks

Paul Ashman

Assistant Priest,

St Pauls Church.

021 550104

Hi Paul Ashman,

Thanks for replying.

At earliest I could meet you tomorrow Friday morning at 11:00. Otherwise, we can meet during your suggested time slot on Monday Feb. 17 at 11:00. Location upstairs in St Pauls offices?

Tomorrow evening I will email substantial information also to you.

Best regards,

Torsten Nenzen

Dear Torsten,

Thank you for your email.

Sorry for your disappointments.

The information unfortunately was not complete.

Apologies for that.

The international student group does meet on Tuesday nights, but currently is having a break. It plans to start again in March.

St Paul's does not have a specific singles group.

But I am sure that you could find another group that would work.

However the point of meeting you is to find out a little more about you.

Also to give you an idea of who we are.

This is the best way of getting a good safe fit all round.

Still happy to meet.

Otherwise good luck and best wishes looking elsewhere.

Paul Ashman

Assistant Priest,

St Pauls Church.

Hi Paul Ashman,

Thanks for replying.

Firstly, it might be appropriate for you to explain why your church office provided incorrect information to me regarding an invitation to a non-existent international students group on Tuesday evening at 18:45.

Secondly, I am unsure what topics that you would find interesting to discuss. I have no need to discuss anything with you. I am simply asking two straight questions regarding what opportunities exist within your church for single Christians to meet and communicate with other Christian singles. If there is additional basic information that you need from me, then please simply ask, and I will email some basic facts which might be useful.

The two basic information which I need from you is (1) time and (2) location of gatherings (which must include a social aspect) where also single Christians in their 30's (maybe also late 20's) exist.

Thanks.

Best regards,

Torsten Nenzen

Dear Torsten,

Would you like to meet for a coffee.

We can discuss your request and find out where you will best find what you are looking for.

Next week I am available Monday 9:30 – 3:00, Tuesday 12:30 – 2:30.

Let me know if any of these times work for you.

Thanks

Paul

Dear St Pauls Church,

Hi.

I am a Christian single man here in Auckland. I seek a Christian community in Auckland where I also might find opportunities to fellowship, socialise, meet and talk with other Christian singles.

Are there opportunities in your congregation where also single Christians can meet and communicate - and build relationships?

Are there fellowship groups, community groups, cell groups or small groups in your church that I can attend?

Best regards,

Torsten Nenzén

Email: torsten@nenzen.net

Dear St Pauls Church,

Hi.

I am a Christian single man here in Auckland. I seek a Christian community in Auckland where I also might find opportunities to fellowship, socialise, meet and talk with other Christian singles.

Are there opportunities in your congregation where also single Christians can meet and communicate - and build relationships?

Are there fellowship groups, community groups, cell groups or small groups in your church that I can attend?

Best regards,

Torsten Nenzén

Email: torsten@nenzen.net

St Pauls Anglican Church,

I visited the St Pauls church this evening at 6:40 pm, walked around the building, waited, and walked around the building a second time. No person was at the church and all doors were shut. There was no international students meeting at the church, which you had said there would be.

I am [very] disappointed by your inaccuracy of information, but I am not surprised.

Shameful.

Regards,

Torsten Nenzen

Hi Torsten,

I have spoken to Andrew and unfortunately your emails went directly to his junk mail folder so he hadn't seen them which is why you didn't receive a reply, I knew he would have replied had he seen it.

The bbq is from 6:30pm and is at [address redacted]

Thanks

Mary

Mary Beattie Head of Connections and Assistant Leader - 18:30 Service

St Paul’s Church

25 Symonds Street, Box 6349, Wellesley Street, Auckland 1010

Phone +64 9 9261 563 M: +64 22 1035387

Email: mary@stpauls.org.nz

Web: www.stpauls.org.nz

Hey Torsten,

I've just realised I talked to you in the pub on Sunday evening and you were talking to my husband Brendon too. I'm the English one. Apologies it didn't really help! Andrew doesn't work for the church but kindly volunteers, I know that he's a busy guy and that sometimes he doesn't get a chance to check his personal email a lot. I will give him a call and get back to you asap with the details for the bbq this evening.

In regards to the two international groups, having met you I would think that the Tuesday night group would be more appropriate and I have copied in Paul, one of our vicars who leads that group. The other International group has a lot of people who attend the 3:30pm service and also a lot of them within the group are learning English and they are largely Asian.

I'm afraid we don't have a collated calendar of events as such but everything that's going on is listed in our happening newsletter which you can find here http://stpauls.org.nz/welcoming/happening.aspx or in our notice sheet. I am aware that the details of the bbq were not directly listed but as I said I shall get back to you on that asap! You can sign-up for Happening here http://stpauls.org.nz/welcoming/happening/are_you_receiving_our_happening_enews_.aspx which goes out on Thursdays.

I hope this clarifies slightly more clearly,

Mary

Mary Beattie Head of Connections and Assistant Leader - 18:30 Service

St Paul’s Church

25 Symonds Street, Box 6349, Wellesley Street, Auckland 1010

Phone +64 9 9261 563 M: +64 22 1035387

Email: mary@stpauls.org.nz

Web: www.stpauls.org.nz

St Pauls Church,

Hello Mary Beattie,

Thanks for a reply. I'm sorry, but no, that did not entirely help.

I have emailed twice to http://stpauls.org.nz/relating/Clusters/hilly_homegroup.aspx but andrewdavis.nz@gmail.com has chosen to not respond. What is the reason for Andrew Davis evasion of communication? There is a BBQ somewhere. Where/when?

I suspect that the International students cluster may not be the best fit. In which ways does the second International students cluster differ from the international cluster posted on the cluster page? What are the demographic descriptions of those two international clusters?

I have visited the evening gathering at St Pauls.

Do you have an online calendar of collated scheduled events for a transparent oversight? Or is covert screening and social control of higher priority?  :-)

Regards,

Torsten Nenzen

Hi Torsten,

Many thanks for your email. It's great that you're interested in meeting people through St Paul's. Which service have you been attending as I would love to meet you to put in touch with people. The best way to meet people more easily would be through one of our Cluster groups, all the details of them are here: http://stpauls.org.nz/relating/Clusters.aspx we also have another group for International students (different from the International students on the cluster page) who meet on Tuesday evenings who meet for dinner down in the crypt at 6:45pm and then have Bible Study. They also have a free lunch in the church on Wednesday from 12-2pm with the same group.

I hope that helps!

Mary

Mary Beattie Head of Connections and Assistant Leader - 18:30 Service

St Paul’s Church

25 Symonds Street, Box 6349, Wellesley Street, Auckland 1010

Phone +64 9 9261 563 M: +64 22 1035387

Email: mary@stpauls.org.nz

Web: www.stpauls.org.nz

Dear St Pauls Church,

Hi.

I am a Christian single man here in Auckland. I seek a Christian community in Auckland where I also might find opportunities to fellowship, socialise, meet and talk with other Christian singles.

Are there opportunities in your congregation where also single Christians can meet and communicate - and build relationships?

Are there fellowship groups, community groups, cell groups or small groups in your church that I can attend?

Best regards,

Torsten Nenzén

Email: torsten@nenzen.net

Dear St Pauls Church Clusters,

Hi.

I am a Christian single man here in Auckland. I seek a Christian community in Auckland where I also might find opportunities to fellowship, socialise, meet and talk with other Christian singles.

Are there opportunities in your congregation where also single Christians can meet and communicate - and build relationships?

Are there fellowship groups, community groups, cell groups or small groups in your church that I can attend?

Best regards,

Torsten Nenzén

Email: torsten@nenzen.net

Dear St Pauls Church,

Hi.

I am a Christian single man here in Auckland. I seek a Christian community in Auckland where I also might find opportunities to fellowship, socialise, meet and talk with other Christian singles.

Are there opportunities in your congregation where also single Christians can meet and communicate - and build relationships?

Are there fellowship groups, community groups, cell groups or small groups in your church that I can attend?

Best regards,

Torsten Nenzén

Email: torsten@nenzen.net