Holy Trinity Brompton Church in London, United Kingdom
Holy Trinity Brompton Church (HTB) in London is an example of a London church that appeared to want to do right, initially responded excellently to email inquiry, but gravely misjudged my person and circumstance through errant presumptuousness, prejudice and some unhealthy misconceptions. As a result of the HTB leaders’ lack of compassion, hypocrisy and prejudice, HTB refused to communicate. Ultimately, HTB leaders decided to treat their innocent visitor devilishly.
------------------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: torsten@nenzen.net
To: pastorates@htb.org.uk ; Webmaster@htb.org.uk ; Niamh.Geoghegan@htb.org.uk ; Jago.Wynne@htb.org.uk ; Emily.Morales@htb.org.uk ; Dan.Millest@alpha.org ; Esther.Jones@htb.org.uk
Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 2:00 PM
Subject: Cowardly and devilish staff of Holy Trinity Brompton churches
Holy Trinity Brompton -- including the cowardly and devilish church staff.
Thanks for your reply to my inquiry regarding opportunities to meet and communicate with other Christian singles in your “church”. Besides a suggestion to visit a so called “pastorate”, I also see from your response some errant presumptuousness, demeaning suggestions, and immature/unhealthy misconceptions. Let me deal with these in the same order as you have written.
Firstly, you seem to think that you can command trust, commitment and relationships. This is a misconception from your side. Commanding peoples’ relationships will function only within cultish movements or controlling cults. Although HTB appears distant from satisfying commonly used criteria for classification as a cult, your commandment nevertheless indicates personal immaturity and an unhealthy church culture. You cannot command people to surrender themselves in trust to others. Relationships and life simply do not work way.
I have written a response to the “pastorate” leader to whom you commanded me to commit, and I wrote this:
From: "torsten@nenzen.net" <nenzen@nenzen.org>
To: <steven.allin@htb.org.uk>
Subject: visit
Date: 4 July 2012 13:34
Hi Steve Allin,
Someone at the HTB office told me to contact you regarding pastorates. HTB office is almost commanding that I place my trust and life in your hands. I am sorry, but relationships and life do not work that way. I know nothing about you, and I will make no promises towards commitments or trust in relation to you or your pastorate.
But if I am welcome to visit your group then I may do so. Am I welcome to visit?
Regards,
Torsten Nenzen
Secondly, related to your appointing of a “pastorate” and “pastor” to whom you expect me to commit, you write interestingly that the pastorate is supposed “to provide support on your journey to marriage” while at the same time writing to me that “Please don't send us any further emails about singles events because we will be unable to help you.” Can you please explain your thoughts expressed in these two sentences. Given that I need opportunities to meet and communicate with other Christian singles, how would a small group pastorate be capable to more effectively inform me of opportunities to meet and communicate with other Christian singles than a central church office? And, why is HTB church office determined to not inform me of opportunities to meet and communicate with other Christian singles?
Thirdly, you make personal observations of me as I visited one of your HTB “Christian” cultured beer-worshipping pubs, as I was invited by an HTB-member to attend your HTB pub-gathering of maybe 30 people, and from this you errantly presume aspects of my person. Allow me to clarify: I hate loud pubs. I avoid drinking alcohol in public. I do not want to be associated with beer-worshipping church people, and therefore, I find no interest in initiating conversations with your beer-worshippers at your loud British pubs. It may be your British “Christian” culture to get drunk publicly in loud pubs and flirt with each other, but this style of “Christian” socialising is definitely not my cup of tea. In a room environment where I can hardly hear my own voice, where I have to lean forward with one ear towards the speaking beer-Christian in front of me in order to hear (through the loud pub music and pub acoustics) so that I cannot simultaneously see the eyes of the person who is speaking towards my ear, I will not be inclined to initiate any conversations. In fact, I would not consider any of these British pub-Christians as a potential wife. I would not desire to marry a woman who identifies herself with these types of public-alcohol-drinking and flirtatious milieus. Now this said; let’s examine what you as a representative of HTB church are saying to me. With errant presumptuousness and demeaning suggestions you wrote:
“If you were to approach people with confidence, introduce yourself and ask the other person questions about themselves, I am sure that soon you will find yourself integrated in the church. Without this level of confidence, it would be hard to find success even within a structured singles ministry.”
Your remarks and suggestions have no resemblance to the reality of my person or to my life circumstance.
Are there opportunities in your congregation for never-married single sincere Christians to meet and communicate honestly?
Regards,
Torsten Nenzen
Mobile: +46 707 77 77 54
Skype: blessisrael
----- Original Message -----
From: torsten@nenzen.net
To: pastorates@htb.org.uk ; Webmaster@htb.org.uk ; Niamh.Geoghegan@htb.org.uk ; Jago.Wynne@htb.org.uk ; Emily.Morales@htb.org.uk ; Dan.Millest@alpha.org ; Esther.Jones@htb.org.uk
Sent: Monday, August 13, 2012 1:13 AM
Subject: Cowardly and devilish staff of HTB
Holy Trinity Brompton -- including the cowardly and devilish church staff.
Thanks for your reply to my inquiry regarding opportunities to meet and communicate with other Christian singles in your “church”. Besides a suggestion to visit a so called “pastorate”, I also see from your response some errant presumptuousness, demeaning suggestions, and immature/unhealthy misconceptions. Let me deal with these in the same order as you have written.
Firstly, you seem to think that you can command trust, commitment and relationships. This is a misconception from your side. Commanding peoples’ relationships will function only within cultish movements or controlling cults. Although HTB appears distant from satisfying commonly used criteria for classification as a cult, your commandment nevertheless indicates personal immaturity and an unhealthy church culture. You cannot command people to surrender themselves in trust to others. Relationships and life simply do not work way.
I have written a response to the “pastorate” leader to whom you commanded me to commit, and I wrote this:
From: "torsten@nenzen.net" <nenzen@nenzen.org>
To: <steven.allin@htb.org.uk>
Subject: visit
Date: 4 July 2012 13:34
Hi Steve Allin,
Someone at the HTB office told me to contact you regarding pastorates. HTB office is almost commanding that I place my trust and life in your hands. I am sorry, but relationships and life do not work that way. I know nothing about you, and I will make no promises towards commitments or trust in relation to you or your pastorate.
But if I am welcome to visit your group then I may do so. Am I welcome to visit?
Regards,
Torsten Nenzen
Secondly, related to your appointing of a “pastorate” and “pastor” to whom you expect me to commit, you write interestingly that the pastorate is supposed “to provide support on your journey to marriage” while at the same time writing to me that “Please don't send us any further emails about singles events because we will be unable to help you.” Can you please explain your thoughts expressed in these two sentences. Given that I need opportunities to meet and communicate with other Christian singles, how would a small group pastorate be capable to more effectively inform me of opportunities to meet and communicate with other Christian singles than a central church office? And, why is HTB church office determined to not inform me of opportunities to meet and communicate with other Christian singles?
Thirdly, you make personal observations of me as I visited one of your HTB “Christian” cultured beer-worshipping pubs, as I was invited by an HTB-member to attend your HTB pub-gathering of maybe 30 people, and from this you errantly presume aspects of my person. Allow me to clarify: I hate loud pubs. I avoid drinking alcohol in public. I do not want to be associated with beer-worshipping church people, and therefore, I find no interest in initiating conversations with your beer-worshippers at your loud British pubs. It may be your British “Christian” culture to get drunk publicly in loud pubs and flirt with each other, but this style of “Christian” socialising is definitely not my cup of tea. In a room environment where I can hardly hear my own voice, where I have to lean forward with one ear towards the speaking beer-Christian in front of me in order to hear (through the loud pub music and pub acoustics) so that I cannot simultaneously see the eyes of the person who is speaking towards my ear, I will not be inclined to initiate any conversations. In fact, I would not consider any of these British pub-Christians as a potential wife. I would not desire to marry a woman who identifies herself with these types of public-alcohol-drinking and flirtatious milieus. Now this said; let’s examine what you as a representative of HTB church are saying to me. With errant presumptuousness and demeaning suggestions you wrote:
“If you were to approach people with confidence, introduce yourself and ask the other person questions about themselves, I am sure that soon you will find yourself integrated in the church. Without this level of confidence, it would be hard to find success even within a structured singles ministry.”
Your remarks and suggestions have no resemblance to the reality of my person or to my life circumstance.
Are there opportunities in your congregation for never-married single sincere Christians to meet and communicate honestly?
Regards,
Torsten Nenzen
Mobile: +46 707 77 77 54
Skype: blessisrael
----- Original Message -----
From: torsten@nenzen.net
To: pastorates@htb.org.uk ; Webmaster@htb.org.uk ; Niamh.Geoghegan@htb.org.uk ; Jago.Wynne@htb.org.uk ; Emily.Morales@htb.org.uk ; Dan.Millest@alpha.org ; Esther.Jones@htb.org.uk
Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 11:31 AM
Subject: Cowardly and devilish staff of HTB
Holy Trinity Brompton -- including the cowardly and devilish church staff.
Thanks for your reply to my inquiry regarding opportunities to meet and communicate with other Christian singles in your “church”. Besides a suggestion to visit a so called “pastorate”, I also see from your response some errant presumptuousness, demeaning suggestions, and immature/unhealthy misconceptions. Let me deal with these in the same order as you have written.
Firstly, you seem to think that you can command trust, commitment and relationships. This is a misconception from your side. Commanding peoples’ relationships will function only within cultish movements or controlling cults. Although HTB appears distant from satisfying commonly used criteria for classification as a cult, your commandment nevertheless indicates personal immaturity and an unhealthy church culture. You cannot command people to surrender themselves in trust to others. Relationships and life simply do not work way.
I have written a response to the “pastorate” leader to whom you commanded me to commit, and I wrote this:
From: "torsten@nenzen.net" <nenzen@nenzen.org>
To: <steven.allin@htb.org.uk>
Subject: visit
Date: 4 July 2012 13:34
Hi Steve Allin,
Someone at the HTB office told me to contact you regarding pastorates. HTB office is almost commanding that I place my trust and life in your hands. I am sorry, but relationships and life do not work that way. I know nothing about you, and I will make no promises towards commitments or trust in relation to you or your pastorate.
But if I am welcome to visit your group then I may do so. Am I welcome to visit?
Regards,
Torsten Nenzen
Secondly, related to your appointing of a “pastorate” and “pastor” to whom you expect me to commit, you write interestingly that the pastorate is supposed “to provide support on your journey to marriage” while at the same time writing to me that “Please don't send us any further emails about singles events because we will be unable to help you.” Can you please explain your thoughts expressed in these two sentences. Given that I need opportunities to meet and communicate with other Christian singles, how would a small group pastorate be capable to more effectively inform me of opportunities to meet and communicate with other Christian singles than a central church office? And, why is HTB church office determined to not inform me of opportunities to meet and communicate with other Christian singles?
Thirdly, you make personal observations of me as I visited one of your HTB “Christian” cultured beer-worshipping pubs, as I was invited by an HTB-member to attend your HTB pub-gathering of maybe 30 people, and from this you errantly presume aspects of my person. Allow me to clarify: I hate loud pubs. I avoid drinking alcohol in public. I do not want to be associated with beer-worshipping church people, and therefore, I find no interest in initiating conversations with your beer-worshippers at your loud British pubs. It may be your British “Christian” culture to get drunk publicly in loud pubs and flirt with each other, but this style of “Christian” socialising is definitely not my cup of tea. In a room environment where I can hardly hear my own voice, where I have to lean forward with one ear towards the speaking beer-Christian in front of me in order to hear (through the loud pub music and pub acoustics) so that I cannot simultaneously see the eyes of the person who is speaking towards my ear, I will not be inclined to initiate any conversations. In fact, I would not consider any of these British pub-Christians as a potential wife. I would not desire to marry a woman who identifies herself with these types of public-alcohol-drinking and flirtatious milieus. Now this said; let’s examine what you as a representative of HTB church are saying to me. With errant presumptuousness and demeaning suggestions you wrote:
“If you were to approach people with confidence, introduce yourself and ask the other person questions about themselves, I am sure that soon you will find yourself integrated in the church. Without this level of confidence, it would be hard to find success even within a structured singles ministry.”
Your remarks and suggestions have no resemblance to the reality of my person or to my life circumstance.
Are there opportunities in your congregation for never-married single sincere Christians to meet and communicate honestly?
Regards,
Torsten Nenzen
Mobile: +46 707 77 77 54
Skype: blessisrael
----- Original Message -----
From: torsten@nenzen.net
To: pastorates@htb.org.uk ; Webmaster@htb.org.uk ; Niamh.Geoghegan@htb.org.uk ; Jago.Wynne@htb.org.uk ; Emily.Morales@htb.org.uk ; Dan.Millest@alpha.org ; Esther.Jones@htb.org.uk
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 11:39 AM
Subject: Cowardly and devilish staff of HTB
Holy Trinity Brompton -- including the cowardly and devilish church staff.
Thanks for your reply to my inquiry regarding opportunities to meet and communicate with other Christian singles in your “church”. Besides a suggestion to visit a so called “pastorate”, I also see from your response some errant presumptuousness, demeaning suggestions, and immature/unhealthy misconceptions. Let me deal with these in the same order as you have written.
Firstly, you seem to think that you can command trust, commitment and relationships. This is a misconception from your side. Commanding peoples’ relationships will function only within cultish movements or controlling cults. Although HTB appears distant from satisfying commonly used criteria for classification as a cult, your commandment nevertheless indicates personal immaturity and an unhealthy church culture. You cannot command people to surrender themselves in trust to others. Relationships and life simply do not work way.
I have written a response to the “pastorate” leader to whom you commanded me to commit, and I wrote this:
From: "torsten@nenzen.net" <nenzen@nenzen.org>
To: <steven.allin@htb.org.uk>
Subject: visit
Date: 4 July 2012 13:34
Hi Steve Allin,
Someone at the HTB office told me to contact you regarding pastorates. HTB office is almost commanding that I place my trust and life in your hands. I am sorry, but relationships and life do not work that way. I know nothing about you, and I will make no promises towards commitments or trust in relation to you or your pastorate.
But if I am welcome to visit your group then I may do so. Am I welcome to visit?
Regards,
Torsten Nenzen
Secondly, related to your appointing of a “pastorate” and “pastor” to whom you expect me to commit, you write interestingly that the pastorate is supposed “to provide support on your journey to marriage” while at the same time writing to me that “Please don't send us any further emails about singles events because we will be unable to help you.” Can you please explain your thoughts expressed in these two sentences. Given that I need opportunities to meet and communicate with other Christian singles, how would a small group pastorate be capable to more effectively inform me of opportunities to meet and communicate with other Christian singles than a central church office? And, why is HTB church office determined to not inform me of opportunities to meet and communicate with other Christian singles?
Thirdly, you make personal observations of me as I visited one of your HTB “Christian” cultured beer-worshipping pubs, as I was invited by an HTB-member to attend your HTB pub-gathering of maybe 30 people, and from this you errantly presume aspects of my person. Allow me to clarify: I hate loud pubs. I avoid drinking alcohol in public. I do not want to be associated with beer-worshipping church people, and therefore, I find no interest in initiating conversations with your beer-worshippers at your loud British pubs. It may be your British “Christian” culture to get drunk publicly in loud pubs and flirt with each other, but this style of “Christian” socialising is definitely not my cup of tea. In a room environment where I can hardly hear my own voice, where I have to lean forward with one ear towards the speaking beer-Christian in front of me in order to hear (through the loud pub music and pub acoustics) so that I cannot simultaneously see the eyes of the person who is speaking towards my ear, I will not be inclined to initiate any conversations. In fact, I would not consider any of these British pub-Christians as a potential wife. I would not desire to marry a woman who identifies herself with these types of public-alcohol-drinking and flirtatious milieus. Now this said; let’s examine what you as a representative of HTB church are saying to me. With errant presumptuousness and demeaning suggestions you wrote:
“If you were to approach people with confidence, introduce yourself and ask the other person questions about themselves, I am sure that soon you will find yourself integrated in the church. Without this level of confidence, it would be hard to find success even within a structured singles ministry.”
Your remarks and suggestions have no resemblance to the reality of my person or to my life circumstance.
Are there opportunities in your congregation for never-married single sincere Christians to meet and communicate honestly?
Regards,
Torsten Nenzen
Mobile: +46 707 77 77 54
Skype: blessisrael
----- Original Message -----
From: torsten@nenzen.net
To: pastorates@htb.org.uk ; Webmaster@htb.org.uk ; Niamh.Geoghegan@htb.org.uk ; Jago.Wynne@htb.org.uk ; Emily.Morales@htb.org.uk ; Dan.Millest@alpha.org ; Esther.Jones@htb.org.uk
Sent: Monday, August 06, 2012 4:16 PM
Subject: Cowardly and devilish staff of HTB
HTB
Thanks for your reply to my inquiry regarding opportunities to meet and communicate with other Christian singles in your “church”. Besides a suggestion to visit a so called “pastorate”, I also see from your response some errant presumptuousness, demeaning suggestions, and immature/unhealthy misconceptions. Let me deal with these in the same order as you have written.
Firstly, you seem to think that you can command trust, commitment and relationships. This is a misconception from your side. Commanding peoples’ relationships will function only within cultish movements or controlling cults. Although HTB appears distant from satisfying commonly used criteria for classification as a cult, your commandment nevertheless indicates personal immaturity and an unhealthy church culture. You cannot command people to surrender themselves in trust to others. Relationships and life simply do not work way.
I have written a response to the “pastorate” leader to whom you commanded me to commit, and I wrote this:
From: "torsten@nenzen.net" <nenzen@nenzen.org>
To: <steven.allin@htb.org.uk>
Subject: visit
Date: 4 July 2012 13:34
Hi Steve Allin,
Someone at the HTB office told me to contact you regarding pastorates. HTB office is almost commanding that I place my trust and life in your hands. I am sorry, but relationships and life do not work that way. I know nothing about you, and I will make no promises towards commitments or trust in relation to you or your pastorate.
But if I am welcome to visit your group then I may do so. Am I welcome to visit?
Regards,
Torsten Nenzen
Secondly, related to your appointing of a “pastorate” and “pastor” to whom you expect me to commit, you write interestingly that the pastorate is supposed “to provide support on your journey to marriage” while at the same time writing to me that “Please don't send us any further emails about singles events because we will be unable to help you.” Can you please explain your thoughts expressed in these two sentences. Given that I need opportunities to meet and communicate with other Christian singles, how would a small group pastorate be capable to more effectively inform me of opportunities to meet and communicate with other Christian singles than a central church office? And, why is HTB church office determined to not inform me of opportunities to meet and communicate with other Christian singles?
Thirdly, you make personal observations of me as I visited one of your HTB “Christian” cultured beer-worshipping pubs, as I was invited by an HTB-member to attend your HTB pub-gathering of maybe 30 people, and from this you errantly presume aspects of my person. Allow me to clarify: I hate loud pubs. I avoid drinking alcohol in public. I do not want to be associated with beer-worshipping church people, and therefore, I find no interest in initiating conversations with your beer-worshippers at your loud British pubs. It may be your British “Christian” culture to get drunk publicly in loud pubs and flirt with each other, but this style of “Christian” socialising is definitely not my cup of tea. In a room environment where I can hardly hear my own voice, where I have to lean forward with one ear towards the speaking beer-Christian in front of me in order to hear (through the loud pub music and pub acoustics) so that I cannot simultaneously see the eyes of the person who is speaking towards my ear, I will not be inclined to initiate any conversations. In fact, I would not consider any of these British pub-Christians as a potential wife. I would not desire to marry a woman who identifies herself with these types of public-alcohol-drinking and flirtatious milieus. Now this said; let’s examine what you as a representative of HTB church are saying to me. With errant presumptuousness and demeaning suggestions you wrote:
“If you were to approach people with confidence, introduce yourself and ask the other person questions about themselves, I am sure that soon you will find yourself integrated in the church. Without this level of confidence, it would be hard to find success even within a structured singles ministry.”
Your remarks and suggestions have no resemblance to the reality of my person or to my life circumstance.
Are there opportunities in your congregation for never-married single sincere Christians to meet and communicate honestly?
Regards,
Torsten Nenzen
Mobile: +46 707 77 77 54
Skype: blessisrael
----- Original Message -----
From: torsten@nenzen.net
To: pastorates@htb.org.uk ; Webmaster@htb.org.uk ; Niamh.Geoghegan@htb.org.uk ; Jago.Wynne@htb.org.uk ; Emily.Morales@htb.org.uk ; Dan.Millest@alpha.org ; Esther.Jones@htb.org.uk
Sent: Friday, August 03, 2012 11:51 AM
Subject: Cowardly and devilish staff of HTB
HTB
Thanks for your reply to my inquiry regarding opportunities to meet and communicate with other Christian singles in your “church”. Besides a suggestion to visit a so called “pastorate”, I also see from your response some errant presumptuousness, demeaning suggestions, and immature/unhealthy misconceptions. Let me deal with these in the same order as you have written.
Firstly, you seem to think that you can command trust, commitment and relationships. This is a misconception from your side. Commanding peoples’ relationships will function only within cultish movements or controlling cults. Although HTB appears distant from satisfying commonly used criteria for classification as a cult, your commandment nevertheless indicates personal immaturity and an unhealthy church culture. You cannot command people to surrender themselves in trust to others. Relationships and life simply do not work way.
I have written a response to the “pastorate” leader to whom you commanded me to commit, and I wrote this:
From: "torsten@nenzen.net" <nenzen@nenzen.org>
To: <steven.allin@htb.org.uk>
Subject: visit
Date: 4 July 2012 13:34
Hi Steve Allin,
Someone at the HTB office told me to contact you regarding pastorates. HTB office is almost commanding that I place my trust and life in your hands. I am sorry, but relationships and life do not work that way. I know nothing about you, and I will make no promises towards commitments or trust in relation to you or your pastorate.
But if I am welcome to visit your group then I may do so. Am I welcome to visit?
Regards,
Torsten Nenzen
Secondly, related to your appointing of a “pastorate” and “pastor” to whom you expect me to commit, you write interestingly that the pastorate is supposed “to provide support on your journey to marriage” while at the same time writing to me that “Please don't send us any further emails about singles events because we will be unable to help you.” Can you please explain your thoughts expressed in these two sentences. Given that I need opportunities to meet and communicate with other Christian singles, how would a small group pastorate be capable to more effectively inform me of opportunities to meet and communicate with other Christian singles than a central church office? And, why is HTB church office determined to not inform me of opportunities to meet and communicate with other Christian singles?
Thirdly, you make personal observations of me as I visited one of your HTB “Christian” cultured beer-worshipping pubs, as I was invited by an HTB-member to attend your HTB pub-gathering of maybe 30 people, and from this you errantly presume aspects of my person. Allow me to clarify: I hate loud pubs. I avoid drinking alcohol in public. I do not want to be associated with beer-worshipping church people, and therefore, I find no interest in initiating conversations with your beer-worshippers at your loud British pubs. It may be your British “Christian” culture to get drunk publicly in loud pubs and flirt with each other, but this style of “Christian” socialising is definitely not my cup of tea. In a room environment where I can hardly hear my own voice, where I have to lean forward with one ear towards the speaking beer-Christian in front of me in order to hear (through the loud pub music and pub acoustics) so that I cannot simultaneously see the eyes of the person who is speaking towards my ear, I will not be inclined to initiate any conversations. In fact, I would not consider any of these British pub-Christians as a potential wife. I would not desire to marry a woman who identifies herself with these types of public-alcohol-drinking and flirtatious milieus. Now this said; let’s examine what you as a representative of HTB church are saying to me. With errant presumptuousness and demeaning suggestions you wrote:
“If you were to approach people with confidence, introduce yourself and ask the other person questions about themselves, I am sure that soon you will find yourself integrated in the church. Without this level of confidence, it would be hard to find success even within a structured singles ministry.”
Your remarks and suggestions have no resemblance to the reality of my person or to my life circumstance.
Are there opportunities in your congregation for never-married single sincere Christians to meet and communicate honestly?
Regards,
Torsten Nenzen
Mobile: +46 707 77 77 54
Skype: blessisrael
----- Original Message -----
From: torsten@nenzen.net
To: pastorates@htb.org.uk ; Webmaster@htb.org.uk ; Niamh.Geoghegan@htb.org.uk ; Jago.Wynne@htb.org.uk ; Emily.Morales@htb.org.uk ; Dan.Millest@alpha.org ; Esther.Jones@htb.org.uk
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 1:38 PM
Subject: Cowardly and devilish staff of HTB
HTB
Thanks for your reply to my inquiry regarding opportunities to meet and communicate with other Christian singles in your “church”. Besides a suggestion to visit a so called “pastorate”, I also see from your response some errant presumptuousness, demeaning suggestions, and immature/unhealthy misconceptions. Let me deal with these in the same order as you have written.
Firstly, you seem to think that you can command trust, commitment and relationships. This is a misconception from your side. Commanding peoples’ relationships will function only within cultish movements or controlling cults. Although HTB appears distant from satisfying commonly used criteria for classification as a cult, your commandment nevertheless indicates personal immaturity and an unhealthy church culture. You cannot command people to surrender themselves in trust to others. Relationships and life simply do not work way.
I have written a response to the “pastorate” leader to whom you commanded me to commit, and I wrote this:
From: "torsten@nenzen.net" <nenzen@nenzen.org>
To: <steven.allin@htb.org.uk>
Subject: visit
Date: 4 July 2012 13:34
Hi Steve Allin,
Someone at the HTB office told me to contact you regarding pastorates. HTB office is almost commanding that I place my trust and life in your hands. I am sorry, but relationships and life do not work that way. I know nothing about you, and I will make no promises towards commitments or trust in relation to you or your pastorate.
But if I am welcome to visit your group then I may do so. Am I welcome to visit?
Regards,
Torsten Nenzen
Secondly, related to your appointing of a “pastorate” and “pastor” to whom you expect me to commit, you write interestingly that the pastorate is supposed “to provide support on your journey to marriage” while at the same time writing to me that “Please don't send us any further emails about singles events because we will be unable to help you.” Can you please explain your thoughts expressed in these two sentences. Given that I need opportunities to meet and communicate with other Christian singles, how would a small group pastorate be capable to more effectively inform me of opportunities to meet and communicate with other Christian singles than a central church office? And, why is HTB church office determined to not inform me of opportunities to meet and communicate with other Christian singles?
Thirdly, you make personal observations of me as I visited one of your HTB “Christian” cultured beer-worshipping pubs, as I was invited by an HTB-member to attend your HTB pub-gathering of maybe 30 people, and from this you errantly presume aspects of my person. Allow me to clarify: I hate loud pubs. I avoid drinking alcohol in public. I do not want to be associated with beer-worshipping church people, and therefore, I find no interest in initiating conversations with your beer-worshippers at your loud British pubs. It may be your British “Christian” culture to get drunk publicly in loud pubs and flirt with each other, but this style of “Christian” socialising is definitely not my cup of tea. In a room environment where I can hardly hear my own voice, where I have to lean forward with one ear towards the speaking beer-Christian in front of me in order to hear (through the loud pub music and pub acoustics) so that I cannot simultaneously see the eyes of the person who is speaking towards my ear, I will not be inclined to initiate any conversations. In fact, I would not consider any of these British pub-Christians as a potential wife. I would not desire to marry a woman who identifies herself with these types of public-alcohol-drinking and flirtatious milieus. Now this said; let’s examine what you as a representative of HTB church are saying to me. With errant presumptuousness and demeaning suggestions you wrote:
“If you were to approach people with confidence, introduce yourself and ask the other person questions about themselves, I am sure that soon you will find yourself integrated in the church. Without this level of confidence, it would be hard to find success even within a structured singles ministry.”
Your remarks and suggestions have no resemblance to the reality of my person or to my life circumstance.
Are there opportunities in your congregation for never-married single sincere Christians to meet and communicate honestly?
Regards,
Torsten Nenzen
Mobile: +46 707 77 77 54
Skype: blessisrael
----- Original Message -----
From: torsten@nenzen.net
To: pastorates@htb.org.uk ; Webmaster@htb.org.uk ; Niamh.Geoghegan@htb.org.uk ; Jago.Wynne@htb.org.uk ; Emily.Morales@htb.org.uk ; Dan.Millest@alpha.org ; Esther.Jones@htb.org.uk
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 4:42 PM
Subject: Cowardly and devilish staff of HTB
HTB
Thanks for your reply to my inquiry regarding opportunities to meet and communicate with other Christian singles in your “church”. Besides a suggestion to visit a so called “pastorate”, I also see from your response some errant presumptuousness, demeaning suggestions, and immature/unhealthy misconceptions. Let me deal with these in the same order as you have written.
Firstly, you seem to think that you can command trust, commitment and relationships. This is a misconception from your side. Commanding peoples’ relationships will function only within cultish movements or controlling cults. Although HTB appears distant from satisfying commonly used criteria for classification as a cult, your commandment nevertheless indicates personal immaturity and an unhealthy church culture. You cannot command people to surrender themselves in trust to others. Relationships and life simply do not work way.
I have written a response to the “pastorate” leader to whom you commanded me to commit, and I wrote this:
From: "torsten@nenzen.net" <nenzen@nenzen.org>
To: <steven.allin@htb.org.uk>
Subject: visit
Date: 4 July 2012 13:34
Hi Steve Allin,
Someone at the HTB office told me to contact you regarding pastorates. HTB office is almost commanding that I place my trust and life in your hands. I am sorry, but relationships and life do not work that way. I know nothing about you, and I will make no promises towards commitments or trust in relation to you or your pastorate.
But if I am welcome to visit your group then I may do so. Am I welcome to visit?
Regards,
Torsten Nenzen
Secondly, related to your appointing of a “pastorate” and “pastor” to whom you expect me to commit, you write interestingly that the pastorate is supposed “to provide support on your journey to marriage” while at the same time writing to me that “Please don't send us any further emails about singles events because we will be unable to help you.” Can you please explain your thoughts expressed in these two sentences. Given that I need opportunities to meet and communicate with other Christian singles, how would a small group pastorate be capable to more effectively inform me of opportunities to meet and communicate with other Christian singles than a central church office? And, why is HTB church office determined to not inform me of opportunities to meet and communicate with other Christian singles?
Thirdly, you make personal observations of me as I visited one of your HTB “Christian” cultured beer-worshipping pubs, as I was invited by an HTB-member to attend your HTB pub-gathering of maybe 30 people, and from this you errantly presume aspects of my person. Allow me to clarify: I hate loud pubs. I avoid drinking alcohol in public. I do not want to be associated with beer-worshipping church people, and therefore, I find no interest in initiating conversations with your beer-worshippers at your loud British pubs. It may be your British “Christian” culture to get drunk publicly in loud pubs and flirt with each other, but this style of “Christian” socialising is definitely not my cup of tea. In a room environment where I can hardly hear my own voice, where I have to lean forward with one ear towards the speaking beer-Christian in front of me in order to hear (through the loud pub music and pub acoustics) so that I cannot simultaneously see the eyes of the person who is speaking towards my ear, I will not be inclined to initiate any conversations. In fact, I would not consider any of these British pub-Christians as a potential wife. I would not desire to marry a woman who identifies herself with these types of public-alcohol-drinking and flirtatious milieus. Now this said; let’s examine what you as a representative of HTB church are saying to me. With errant presumptuousness and demeaning suggestions you wrote:
“If you were to approach people with confidence, introduce yourself and ask the other person questions about themselves, I am sure that soon you will find yourself integrated in the church. Without this level of confidence, it would be hard to find success even within a structured singles ministry.”
Your remarks and suggestions have no resemblance to the reality of my person or to my life circumstance.
Are there opportunities in your congregation for never-married single sincere Christians to meet and communicate honestly?
Regards,
Torsten Nenzen
Mobile: +46 707 77 77 54
Skype: blessisrael
----- Original Message -----
From: torsten@nenzen.net
To: pastorates@htb.org.uk ; Webmaster@htb.org.uk ; Niamh.Geoghegan@htb.org.uk ; Jago.Wynne@htb.org.uk ; Emily.Morales@htb.org.uk ; Dan.Millest@alpha.org ; Esther.Jones@htb.org.uk
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2012 12:15 PM
Subject: Cowardly and devilish staff of HTB
HTB
Thanks for your reply to my inquiry regarding opportunities to meet and communicate with other Christian singles in your “church”. Besides a suggestion to visit a so called “pastorate”, I also see from your response some errant presumptuousness, demeaning suggestions, and immature/unhealthy misconceptions. Let me deal with these in the same order as you have written.
Firstly, you seem to think that you can command trust, commitment and relationships. This is a misconception from your side. Commanding peoples’ relationships will function only within cultish movements or controlling cults. Although HTB appears distant from satisfying commonly used criteria for classification as a cult, your commandment nevertheless indicates personal immaturity and an unhealthy church culture. You cannot command people to surrender themselves in trust to others. Relationships and life simply do not work way.
I have written a response to the “pastorate” leader to whom you commanded me to commit, and I wrote this:
From: "torsten@nenzen.net" <nenzen@nenzen.org>
To: <steven.allin@htb.org.uk>
Subject: visit
Date: 4 July 2012 13:34
Hi Steve Allin,
Someone at the HTB office told me to contact you regarding pastorates. HTB office is almost commanding that I place my trust and life in your hands. I am sorry, but relationships and life do not work that way. I know nothing about you, and I will make no promises towards commitments or trust in relation to you or your pastorate.
But if I am welcome to visit your group then I may do so. Am I welcome to visit?
Regards,
Torsten Nenzen
Secondly, related to your appointing of a “pastorate” and “pastor” to whom you expect me to commit, you write interestingly that the pastorate is supposed “to provide support on your journey to marriage” while at the same time writing to me that “Please don't send us any further emails about singles events because we will be unable to help you.” Can you please explain your thoughts expressed in these two sentences. Given that I need opportunities to meet and communicate with other Christian singles, how would a small group pastorate be capable to more effectively inform me of opportunities to meet and communicate with other Christian singles than a central church office? And, why is HTB church office determined to not inform me of opportunities to meet and communicate with other Christian singles?
Thirdly, you make personal observations of me as I visited one of your HTB “Christian” cultured beer-worshipping pubs, as I was invited by an HTB-member to attend your HTB pub-gathering of maybe 30 people, and from this you errantly presume aspects of my person. Allow me to clarify: I hate loud pubs. I avoid drinking alcohol in public. I do not want to be associated with beer-worshipping church people, and therefore, I find no interest in initiating conversations with your beer-worshippers at your loud British pubs. It may be your British “Christian” culture to get drunk publicly in loud pubs and flirt with each other, but this style of “Christian” socialising is definitely not my cup of tea. In a room environment where I can hardly hear my own voice, where I have to lean forward with one ear towards the speaking beer-Christian in front of me in order to hear (through the loud pub music and pub acoustics) so that I cannot simultaneously see the eyes of the person who is speaking towards my ear, I will not be inclined to initiate any conversations. In fact, I would not consider any of these British pub-Christians as a potential wife. I would not desire to marry a woman who identifies herself with these types of public-alcohol-drinking and flirtatious milieus. Now this said; let’s examine what you as a representative of HTB church are saying to me. With errant presumptuousness and demeaning suggestions you wrote:
“If you were to approach people with confidence, introduce yourself and ask the other person questions about themselves, I am sure that soon you will find yourself integrated in the church. Without this level of confidence, it would be hard to find success even within a structured singles ministry.”
Your remarks and suggestions have no resemblance to the reality of my person or to my life circumstance.
Are there opportunities in your congregation for never-married single sincere Christians to meet and communicate honestly?
Regards,
Torsten Nenzen
Mobile: +46 707 77 77 54
Skype: blessisrael
----- Original Message -----
From: torsten@nenzen.net
To: pastorates@htb.org.uk ; Webmaster@htb.org.uk ; Niamh.Geoghegan@htb.org.uk ; Jago.Wynne@htb.org.uk ; Emily.Morales@htb.org.uk ; Dan.Millest@alpha.org ; Esther.Jones@htb.org.uk
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2012 12:42 PM
Subject: Pastorates at HTB
HTB
Thanks for your reply to my inquiry regarding opportunities to meet and communicate with other Christian singles in your “church”. Besides a suggestion to visit a so called “pastorate”, I also see from your response some errant presumptuousness, demeaning suggestions, and immature/unhealthy misconceptions. Let me deal with these in the same order as you have written.
Firstly, you seem to think that you can command trust, commitment and relationships. This is a misconception from your side. Commanding peoples’ relationships will function only within cultish movements or controlling cults. Although HTB appears distant from satisfying commonly used criteria for classification as a cult, your commandment nevertheless indicates personal immaturity and an unhealthy church culture. You cannot command people to surrender themselves in trust to others. Relationships and life simply do not work way.
I have written a response to the “pastorate” leader to whom you commanded me to commit, and I wrote this:
From: "torsten@nenzen.net" <nenzen@nenzen.org>
To: <steven.allin@htb.org.uk>
Subject: visit
Date: 4 July 2012 13:34
Hi Steve Allin,
Someone at the HTB office told me to contact you regarding pastorates. HTB office is almost commanding that I place my trust and life in your hands. I am sorry, but relationships and life do not work that way. I know nothing about you, and I will make no promises towards commitments or trust in relation to you or your pastorate.
But if I am welcome to visit your group then I may do so. Am I welcome to visit?
Regards,
Torsten Nenzen
Secondly, related to your appointing of a “pastorate” and “pastor” to whom you expect me to commit, you write interestingly that the pastorate is supposed “to provide support on your journey to marriage” while at the same time writing to me that “Please don't send us any further emails about singles events because we will be unable to help you.” Can you please explain your thoughts expressed in these two sentences. Given that I need opportunities to meet and communicate with other Christian singles, how would a small group pastorate be capable to more effectively inform me of opportunities to meet and communicate with other Christian singles than a central church office? And, why is HTB church office determined to not inform me of opportunities to meet and communicate with other Christian singles?
Thirdly, you make personal observations of me as I visited one of your HTB “Christian” cultured beer-worshipping pubs, as I was invited by an HTB-member to attend your HTB pub-gathering of maybe 30 people, and from this you errantly presume aspects of my person. Allow me to clarify: I hate loud pubs. I avoid drinking alcohol in public. I do not want to be associated with beer-worshipping church people, and therefore, I find no interest in initiating conversations with your beer-worshippers at your loud British pubs. It may be your British “Christian” culture to get drunk publicly in loud pubs and flirt with each other, but this style of “Christian” socialising is definitely not my cup of tea. In a room environment where I can hardly hear my own voice, where I have to lean forward with one ear towards the speaking beer-Christian in front of me in order to hear (through the loud pub music and pub acoustics) so that I cannot simultaneously see the eyes of the person who is speaking towards my ear, I will not be inclined to initiate any conversations. In fact, I would not consider any of these British pub-Christians as a potential wife. I would not desire to marry a woman who identifies herself with these types of public-alcohol-drinking and flirtatious milieus. Now this said; let’s examine what you as a representative of HTB church are saying to me. With errant presumptuousness and demeaning suggestions you wrote:
“If you were to approach people with confidence, introduce yourself and ask the other person questions about themselves, I am sure that soon you will find yourself integrated in the church. Without this level of confidence, it would be hard to find success even within a structured singles ministry.”
Your remarks and suggestions have no resemblance to the reality of my person or to my life circumstance.
Are there opportunities in your congregation for never-married single sincere Christians to meet and communicate honestly?
Regards,
Torsten Nenzen
Mobile: +46 707 77 77 54
Skype: blessisrael
----- Original Message -----
From: torsten@nenzen.net
To: pastorates@htb.org.uk ; Webmaster@htb.org.uk ; Niamh.Geoghegan@htb.org.uk ; Jago.Wynne@htb.org.uk ; Emily.Morales@htb.org.uk ; Dan.Millest@alpha.org ; Esther.Jones@htb.org.uk
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 1:00 PM
Subject: Pastorates at HTB
HTB
Thanks for your reply to my inquiry regarding opportunities to meet and communicate with other Christian singles in your “church”. Besides a suggestion to visit a so called “pastorate”, I also see from your response some errant presumptuousness, demeaning suggestions, and immature/unhealthy misconceptions. Let me deal with these in the same order as you have written.
Firstly, you seem to think that you can command trust, commitment and relationships. This is a misconception from your side. Commanding peoples’ relationships will function only within cultish movements or controlling cults. Although HTB appears distant from satisfying commonly used criteria for classification as a cult, your commandment nevertheless indicates personal immaturity and an unhealthy church culture. You cannot command people to surrender themselves in trust to others. Relationships and life simply do not work way.
I have written a response to the “pastorate” leader to whom you commanded me to commit, and I wrote this:
From: "torsten@nenzen.net" <nenzen@nenzen.org>
To: <steven.allin@htb.org.uk>
Subject: visit
Date: 4 July 2012 13:34
Hi Steve Allin,
Someone at the HTB office told me to contact you regarding pastorates. HTB office is almost commanding that I place my trust and life in your hands. I am sorry, but relationships and life do not work that way. I know nothing about you, and I will make no promises towards commitments or trust in relation to you or your pastorate.
But if I am welcome to visit your group then I may do so. Am I welcome to visit?
Regards,
Torsten Nenzen
Secondly, related to your appointing of a “pastorate” and “pastor” to whom you expect me to commit, you write interestingly that the pastorate is supposed “to provide support on your journey to marriage” while at the same time writing to me that “Please don't send us any further emails about singles events because we will be unable to help you.” Can you please explain your thoughts expressed in these two sentences. Given that I need opportunities to meet and communicate with other Christian singles, how would a small group pastorate be capable to more effectively inform me of opportunities to meet and communicate with other Christian singles than a central church office? And, why is HTB church office determined to not inform me of opportunities to meet and communicate with other Christian singles?
Thirdly, you make personal observations of me as I visited one of your HTB “Christian” cultured beer-worshipping pubs, as I was invited by an HTB-member to attend your HTB pub-gathering of maybe 30 people, and from this you errantly presume aspects of my person. Allow me to clarify: I hate loud pubs. I avoid drinking alcohol in public. I do not want to be associated with beer-worshipping church people, and therefore, I find no interest in initiating conversations with your beer-worshippers at your loud British pubs. It may be your British “Christian” culture to get drunk publicly in loud pubs and flirt with each other, but this style of “Christian” socialising is definitely not my cup of tea. In a room environment where I can hardly hear my own voice, where I have to lean forward with one ear towards the speaking beer-Christian in front of me in order to hear (through the loud pub music and pub acoustics) so that I cannot simultaneously see the eyes of the person who is speaking towards my ear, I will not be inclined to initiate any conversations. In fact, I would not consider any of these British pub-Christians as a potential wife. I would not desire to marry a woman who identifies herself with these types of public-alcohol-drinking and flirtatious milieus. Now this said; let’s examine what you as a representative of HTB church are saying to me. With errant presumptuousness and demeaning suggestions you wrote:
“If you were to approach people with confidence, introduce yourself and ask the other person questions about themselves, I am sure that soon you will find yourself integrated in the church. Without this level of confidence, it would be hard to find success even within a structured singles ministry.”
Your remarks and suggestions have no resemblance to the reality of my person or to my life circumstance.
Are there opportunities in your congregation for never-married single sincere Christians to meet and communicate honestly?
Regards,
Torsten Nenzen
Mobile: +46 707 77 77 54
Skype: blessisrael
----- Original Message -----
From: torsten@nenzen.net
To: pastorates@htb.org.uk ; Webmaster@htb.org.uk ; Niamh.Geoghegan@htb.org.uk ; Jago.Wynne@htb.org.uk ; Emily.Morales@htb.org.uk ; Dan.Millest@alpha.org ; Esther.Jones@htb.org.uk
Sent: Friday, July 20, 2012 1:19 PM
Subject: Fw: Pastorates at HTB
HTB
Thanks for your reply to my inquiry regarding opportunities to meet and communicate with other Christian singles in your “church”. Besides a suggestion to visit a so called “pastorate”, I also see from your response some errant presumptuousness, demeaning suggestions, and immature/unhealthy misconceptions. Let me deal with these in the same order as you have written.
Firstly, you seem to think that you can command trust, commitment and relationships. This is a misconception from your side. Commanding peoples’ relationships will function only within cultish movements or controlling cults. Although HTB appears distant from satisfying commonly used criteria for classification as a cult, your commandment nevertheless indicates personal immaturity and an unhealthy church culture. You cannot command people to surrender themselves in trust to others. Relationships and life simply do not work way.
I have written a response to the “pastorate” leader to whom you commanded me to commit, and I wrote this:
From: "torsten@nenzen.net" <nenzen@nenzen.org>
To: <steven.allin@htb.org.uk>
Subject: visit
Date: 4 July 2012 13:34
Hi Steve Allin,
Someone at the HTB office told me to contact you regarding pastorates. HTB office is almost commanding that I place my trust and life in your hands. I am sorry, but relationships and life do not work that way. I know nothing about you, and I will make no promises towards commitments or trust in relation to you or your pastorate.
But if I am welcome to visit your group then I may do so. Am I welcome to visit?
Regards,
Torsten Nenzen
Secondly, related to your appointing of a “pastorate” and “pastor” to whom you expect me to commit, you write interestingly that the pastorate is supposed “to provide support on your journey to marriage” while at the same time writing to me that “Please don't send us any further emails about singles events because we will be unable to help you.” Can you please explain your thoughts expressed in these two sentences. Given that I need opportunities to meet and communicate with other Christian singles, how would a small group pastorate be capable to more effectively inform me of opportunities to meet and communicate with other Christian singles than a central church office? And, why is HTB church office determined to not inform me of opportunities to meet and communicate with other Christian singles?
Thirdly, you make personal observations of me as I visited one of your HTB “Christian” cultured beer-worshipping pubs, as I was invited by an HTB-member to attend your HTB pub-gathering of maybe 30 people, and from this you errantly presume aspects of my person. Allow me to clarify: I hate loud pubs. I avoid drinking alcohol in public. I do not want to be associated with beer-worshipping church people, and therefore, I find no interest in initiating conversations with your beer-worshippers at your loud British pubs. It may be your British “Christian” culture to get drunk publicly in loud pubs and flirt with each other, but this style of “Christian” socialising is definitely not my cup of tea. In a room environment where I can hardly hear my own voice, where I have to lean forward with one ear towards the speaking beer-Christian in front of me in order to hear (through the loud pub music and pub acoustics) so that I cannot simultaneously see the eyes of the person who is speaking towards my ear, I will not be inclined to initiate any conversations. In fact, I would not consider any of these British pub-Christians as a potential wife. I would not desire to marry a woman who identifies herself with these types of public-alcohol-drinking and flirtatious milieus. Now this said; let’s examine what you as a representative of HTB church are saying to me. With errant presumptuousness and demeaning suggestions you wrote:
“If you were to approach people with confidence, introduce yourself and ask the other person questions about themselves, I am sure that soon you will find yourself integrated in the church. Without this level of confidence, it would be hard to find success even within a structured singles ministry.”
Your remarks and suggestions have no resemblance to the reality of my person or to my life circumstance.
Are there opportunities in your congregation for never-married single sincere Christians to meet and communicate honestly?
Regards,
Torsten Nenzen
Mobile: +46 707 77 77 54
Skype: blessisrael
----- Original Message -----
From: torsten@nenzen.net
To: HTB Pastorates ; webmaster ; Niamh Geoghegan ; Jago Wynne ; Emily Morales ; Dan Millest
Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2012 2:39 PM
Subject: Pastorates at HTB
HTB
Thanks for your reply to my inquiry regarding opportunities to meet and communicate with other Christian singles in your “church”. Besides a suggestion to visit a so called “pastorate”, I also see from your response some errant presumptuousness, demeaning suggestions, and immature/unhealthy misconceptions. Let me deal with these in the same order as you have written.
Firstly, you seem to think that you can command trust, commitment and relationships. This is a misconception from your side. Commanding peoples’ relationships will function only within cultish movements or controlling cults. Although HTB appears distant from satisfying commonly used criteria for classification as a cult, your commandment nevertheless indicates personal immaturity and an unhealthy church culture. You cannot command people to surrender themselves in trust to others. Relationships and life simply do not work way.
I have written a response to the “pastorate” leader to whom you commanded me to commit, and I wrote this:
From: "torsten@nenzen.net" <nenzen@nenzen.org>
To: <steven.allin@htb.org.uk>
Subject: visit
Date: 4 July 2012 13:34
Hi Steve Allin,
Someone at the HTB office told me to contact you regarding pastorates. HTB office is almost commanding that I place my trust and life in your hands. I am sorry, but relationships and life do not work that way. I know nothing about you, and I will make no promises towards commitments or trust in relation to you or your pastorate.
But if I am welcome to visit your group then I may do so. Am I welcome to visit?
Regards,
Torsten Nenzen
Secondly, related to your appointing of a “pastorate” and “pastor” to whom you expect me to commit, you write interestingly that the pastorate is supposed “to provide support on your journey to marriage” while at the same time writing to me that “Please don't send us any further emails about singles events because we will be unable to help you.” Can you please explain your thoughts expressed in these two sentences. Given that I need opportunities to meet and communicate with other Christian singles, how would a small group pastorate be capable to more effectively inform me of opportunities to meet and communicate with other Christian singles than a central church office? And, why is HTB church office determined to not inform me of opportunities to meet and communicate with other Christian singles?
Thirdly, you make personal observations of me as I visited one of your HTB “Christian” cultured beer-worshipping pubs, as I was invited by an HTB-member to attend your HTB pub-gathering of maybe 30 people, and from this you errantly presume aspects of my person. Allow me to clarify: I hate loud pubs. I avoid drinking alcohol in public. I do not want to be associated with beer-worshipping church people, and therefore, I find no interest in initiating conversations with your beer-worshippers at your loud British pubs. It may be your British “Christian” culture to get drunk publicly in loud pubs and flirt with each other, but this style of “Christian” socialising is definitely not my cup of tea. In a room environment where I can hardly hear my own voice, where I have to lean forward with one ear towards the speaking beer-Christian in front of me in order to hear (through the loud pub music and pub acoustics) so that I cannot simultaneously see the eyes of the person who is speaking towards my ear, I will not be inclined to initiate any conversations. In fact, I would not consider any of these British pub-Christians as a potential wife. I would not desire to marry a woman who identifies herself with these types of public-alcohol-drinking and flirtatious milieus. Now this said; let’s examine what you as a representative of HTB church are saying to me. With errant presumptuousness and demeaning suggestions you wrote:
“If you were to approach people with confidence, introduce yourself and ask the other person questions about themselves, I am sure that soon you will find yourself integrated in the church. Without this level of confidence, it would be hard to find success even within a structured singles ministry.”
Your remarks and suggestions have no resemblance to the reality of my person or to my life circumstance.
Are there opportunities in your congregation for never-married single sincere Christians to meet and communicate honestly?
Regards,
Torsten Nenzen
Mobile: +46 707 77 77 54
Skype: blessisrael
----- Original Message -----
From: torsten@nenzen.net
To: Esther Jones
Cc: HTB Pastorates ; webmaster ; Niamh Geoghegan ; Jago Wynne ; Emily Morales ; Dan Millest
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2012 4:15 PM
Subject: Pastorates at HTB
HTB
Thanks for your reply to my inquiry regarding opportunities to meet and communicate with other Christian singles in your “church”. Besides a suggestion to visit a so called “pastorate”, I also see from your response some errant presumptuousness, demeaning suggestions, and immature/unhealthy misconceptions. Let me deal with these in the same order as you have written.
Firstly, you seem to think that you can command trust, commitment and relationships. This is a misconception from your side. Commanding peoples’ relationships will function only within cultish movements or controlling cults. Although HTB appears distant from satisfying commonly used criteria for classification as a cult, your commandment nevertheless indicates personal immaturity and an unhealthy church culture. You cannot command people to surrender themselves in trust to others. Relationships and life simply do not work way.
I have written a response to the “pastorate” leader to whom you commanded me to commit, and I wrote this:
From: "torsten@nenzen.net" <nenzen@nenzen.org>
To: <steven.allin@htb.org.uk>
Subject: visit
Date: 4 July 2012 13:34
Hi Steve Allin,
Someone at the HTB office told me to contact you regarding pastorates. HTB office is almost commanding that I place my trust and life in your hands. I am sorry, but relationships and life do not work that way. I know nothing about you, and I will make no promises towards commitments or trust in relation to you or your pastorate.
But if I am welcome to visit your group then I may do so. Am I welcome to visit?
Regards,
Torsten Nenzen
Secondly, related to your appointing of a “pastorate” and “pastor” to whom you expect me to commit, you write interestingly that the pastorate is supposed “to provide support on your journey to marriage” while at the same time writing to me that “Please don't send us any further emails about singles events because we will be unable to help you.” Can you please explain your thoughts expressed in these two sentences. Given that I need opportunities to meet and communicate with other Christian singles, how would a small group pastorate be capable to more effectively inform me of opportunities to meet and communicate with other Christian singles than a central church office? And, why is HTB church office determined to not inform me of opportunities to meet and communicate with other Christian singles?
Thirdly, you make personal observations of me as I visited one of your HTB “Christian” cultured beer-worshipping pubs, as I was invited by an HTB-member to attend your HTB pub-gathering of maybe 30 people, and from this you errantly presume aspects of my person. Allow me to clarify: I hate loud pubs. I avoid drinking alcohol in public. I do not want to be associated with beer-worshipping church people, and therefore, I find no interest in initiating conversations with your beer-worshippers at your loud British pubs. It may be your British “Christian” culture to get drunk publicly in loud pubs and flirt with each other, but this style of “Christian” socialising is definitely not my cup of tea. In a room environment where I can hardly hear my own voice, where I have to lean forward with one ear towards the speaking beer-Christian in front of me in order to hear (through the loud pub music and pub acoustics) so that I cannot simultaneously see the eyes of the person who is speaking towards my ear, I will not be inclined to initiate any conversations. In fact, I would not consider any of these British pub-Christians as a potential wife. I would not desire to marry a woman who identifies herself with these types of public-alcohol-drinking and flirtatious milieus. Now this said; let’s examine what you as a representative of HTB church are saying to me. With errant presumptuousness and demeaning suggestions you wrote:
“If you were to approach people with confidence, introduce yourself and ask the other person questions about themselves, I am sure that soon you will find yourself integrated in the church. Without this level of confidence, it would be hard to find success even within a structured singles ministry.”
Your remarks and suggestions have no resemblance to the reality of my person or to my life circumstance.
Are there opportunities in your congregation for never-married single sincere Christians to meet and communicate honestly?
Regards,
Torsten Nenzen
Mobile: +46 707 77 77 54
Skype: blessisrael
----- Original Message -----
From: Esther Jones
Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2012 11:43 AM
Subject: RE: Pastorates at HTB
Dear Torsten,
It was great to meet you last week at St Marys Bryanston Square. I have been receiving all your emails, and your email asking for help a few days ago.
I tried to telephone you but as you do not have a voicemail I will email to reiterate how we can help you, however there is only a certain extent to which we can help you.
In response for your desire to be involved and accepted in a church we are happy to link you to a pastorate.
The pastorate I’d like to recommend to you is run by Steven Allin, and it meets next Tuesday evening on the 10th July on site at HTB. Please email steven.allin@htb.org.uk for details for the time and exact venue.
I’d like to stipulate that the aim of a pastorate is for Christian fellowship and friendship. You would need to be prepared to stay for the whole evening, commit to attending every week that it is on, and you would need to be prepared to talk to Steven as the pastor about the issues that you are facing at the moment. A pastorate group would be there to provide support and encouragement on your journey to marriage. I have spoken to Steven about you, and he is looking forward to welcoming you. So please do email him.
In terms of singles ministry, I saw you at Aragon House last week, and events such as this are our unofficial singles events. I observed that you didn’t approach people and begin conversation with them. I’d like to explain our culture to you as it might help you integrate better. Generally, the onus is on the new person to find the courage to introduce and integrate themselves with already established groups. If you were to approach people with confidence, introduce yourself and ask the other person questions about themselves, I am sure that soon you will find yourself integrated in the church. Without this level of confidence, it would be hard to find success even within a structured singles ministry. This is why attending a Pastorate is so important as we’re all growing in our Christian walk and we all need friendship and support to get to our end goals.
We hope you enjoy Steven’s pastorate and enjoy attending the services.
Please don’t send us any further emails about singles events because we will be unable to help you. You will find opportunities to socialise through making friends in the Pastorate.
Best wishes
Esther
Esther Jones
Pastorates Manager
Holy Trinity Brompton / Alpha International | Brompton Road | London | SW7 1JA
direct line: +44 (0)20 7052 2387 | switchboard: +44 (0)845 644 7533 | www.htb.org.uk | www.alpha.org
----- Original Message -----
From: Tim Matthews
To: torsten@nenzen.net ; Esther Jones ; HTB Pastorates ; webmaster ; Niamh Geoghegan ; Jago Wynne ; Emily Morales
Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2012 11:33 AM
Subject: RE: Pastorates at HTB
Hi Torsten
Let's meet on Sunday and discuss it then - far better than over countless emails
going back and forth. I'll be at the 9am and 6.30pm service at St Paul's Onslow
Square, or the 11am service at St Augustine's.
Many thanks
Tim
----- Original Message -----
From: torsten@nenzen.net
To: Esther.Jones@htb.org.uk ; pastorates@htb.org.uk ; Tim.Matthews@htb.org.uk ; webmaster@htb.org.uk ; Niamh.Geoghegan@htb.org.uk ; Jago.Wynne@htb.org.uk ; Emily.Morales@htb.org.uk
Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2012 11:26 AM
Subject: Pastorates at HTB
HTB,
Hello.
I can see that HTB is consistently refusing to reply to my inquiry. What is the reason that HTB refuses to repond to this inquiry?
Are there opportunities in HTB where also single Christians can meet and communicate? Which "pastorates" can I visit?
Regards,
Torsten Nenzen
Email: torsten@nenzen.net
Text message: +46 707 77 77 54
Skype: blessisrael
----- Original Message -----
From: torsten@nenzen.net
To: Esther.Jones@htb.org.uk ; pastorates@htb.org.uk ; Tim.Matthews@htb.org.uk ; webmaster@htb.org.uk ; Niamh.Geoghegan@htb.org.uk ; Jago.Wynne@htb.org.uk ; Emily.Morales@htb.org.uk
Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2012 10:58 AM
Subject: Pastorates at HTB
HTB,
Hello.
Are there opportunities in HTB where also single Christians can meet and communicate?
Which "pastorates" can I visit?
Regards,
Torsten Nenzen
Email: torsten@nenzen.net
Text message: +46 707 77 77 54
Skype: blessisrael
----- Original Message -----
From: torsten@nenzen.net
To: Esther.Jones@htb.org.uk ; pastorates@htb.org.uk
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2012 5:32 PM
Subject: Pastorates at HTB
HTB,
Hello.
Are there opportunities in HTB where also single Christians can meet and communicate?
Which "pastorates" can I visit?
Regards,
Torsten Nenzen
Email: torsten@nenzen.net
Text message: +46 707 77 77 54
Skype: blessisrael
----- Original Message -----
From: torsten@nenzen.net
To: Esther Jones ; HTB Pastorates
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2012 3:10 PM
Subject: Pastorates at HTB
HTB,
Hello.
Are there opportunities in HTB where also single Christians can meet and communicate?
Which "pastorates" can I visit?
Regards,
Torsten Nenzen
Email: torsten@nenzen.net
Text message: +46 707 77 77 54
Skype: blessisrael
----- Original Message -----
From: torsten@nenzen.net
To: Esther Jones ; HTB Pastorates
Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 11:44 AM
Subject: Pastorates at HTB
HTB,
Hello.
Are there opportunities in HTB where also single Christians can meet and communicate?
Which "pastorates" can I visit?
Regards,
Torsten Nenzen
Email: torsten@nenzen.net
Text message: +46 707 77 77 54
Skype: blessisrael
----- Original Message -----
From: torsten@nenzen.net
To: Esther Jones ; HTB Pastorates
Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 1:36 PM
Subject: Pastorates at HTB
HTB,
Hello.
Are there opportunities in HTB where also single Christians can meet and communicate?
Which "pastorates" can I visit?
Regards,
Torsten Nenzen
Email: torsten@nenzen.net
Text message: +46 707 77 77 54
Skype: blessisrael
----- Original Message -----
From: torsten@nenzen.net
To: Esther Jones ; HTB Pastorates
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2012 1:36 PM
Subject: Pastorates at HTB
HTB,
Hello.
Are there opportunities in HTB where also single Christians can meet and communicate?
Which "pastorates" can I visit?
Regards,
Torsten Nenzen
Email: torsten@nenzen.net
Text message: +46 707 77 77 54
Skype: blessisrael
----- Original Message -----
From: torsten@nenzen.net
To: Esther Jones ; HTB Pastorates
Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2012 6:38 PM
Subject: Pastorates at HTB
HTB,
Hello.
Are there opportunities in HTB where also single Christians can meet and communicate?
Which "pastorates" can I visit?
Regards,
Torsten Nenzen
Email: torsten@nenzen.net
Text message: +46 707 77 77 54